Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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crfriend
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:I thought about [adding "masculinised" to the local dictionary], but I want to see if it's ever added on it's own through societal changes.
I rather doubt that we'll ever see it come into use because there seems to be no need for it. Recall that while English is a "non-gendered" language (compare to French or any of the Romance Languages) there is a standard notation that uses masculine pronouns in favour of feminine ones ("he" versus "her") unless an individual's gender is known (and the pronoun for objects is always "it" (which I have on occasion deliberately used offensively when remarking on radical feminists); the subtle implication here is that unless something is inherently feminine it's either masculine or neuter (viz. German, which in addition to masculine and feminine forms has an explicit neuter). So we're within bounds of flatly informing folks that our skirts are just that -- ours not "women's", even if they did happen to come from the "distaff side" of the aisle(Thanks, ChrisM!).
Back on the topic of transgender attention helping us or hurting, I have to say it just depends on the vibe of the community in question. There are many, especially around here who view transgender people in the same way they once (and still do) view virtually anyone else that challenges the status quo of society, including Martin Luther King (as he was mentioned in the thread... albeit by accident).
I suspect it's neither helped nor hurt all that much. Many folks are going to think what they already think no matter what labels happen to be in use at the time. I mostly view the trans-* label as a way of trying to gain some form of control over the rigid -- and getting worse, at least for men -- binary. As men have more and more behaviours that were once normative male behaviours stripped away from the "accepted" version of "masculine" new words need to be coined to replace what used to work but now no longer does as concepts and usage shift (viz. "liberal" and "conservative" now being slurs in the USA). PC is really starting to take its toll -- and that's something that needs addressing rather than inventing new words, disorders, and syndromes for something that was once normal.
Then again, there are scores of people who despise transgender, and anyone who resembles transgender people with every ounce of blood they have, and would probably love to have the opportunity to meet us in a dark alley with no witnesses.
And it's precisely that class of individual that we should be encouraging to open their minds up a bit when it comes to what we simply choose to clothe ourselves in. In all probability we have free- and forward- thinkers on-board already without really knowing it -- the mindset we need to get our heads around is the one where individual thought is an alien concept, or worse, something overtly dangerous. Yes, I'll use a stereotype here with a big fat brush loaded with tar -- "Fox 'News' watchers". There, I've gone and said it.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Moonshadow, Carl let's all take a deep breath or two.

When pants suits first came out, IBM drew that deep dark line in the sand saying NO WAY! Until the president's secretary organized ALL of the women in the HQ to show up in them on the same day. Then IBM erased that line and in no time flat it was a non-issue.

I believe the same will be true about men wearing skirts and dresses. True pioneers like you Carl have courageously and successfully chipped at the ice. I'm trying to help make the first crack here in Portland by advancing the issue of getting the "T' in all of its variations into the corporate handbook. Once some corporation takes that plunge, the ice will be broken and 5 to 10 years later no one will remember what all of the noise was about. Once the yahoos in Deliverance County find out their new Regional Manager is a skirt-wearing guy from out-of-town who actually knows what he's talking about the local kook who wears skirts won't look so strange anymore. Don't you think Moon?

In the meantime, if wearing a label I feel is a little silly helps all of this happen sooner, hand me a plackard. Just make sure it's a big one but not so big as to overwhelm my outfit and for crying out loud make sure the color doesn't clash!

I mean it's all about the accessories! Right? :wink:
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Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by moonshadow »

Well, I appreciate your efforts Dave.

And I believe you're right, that if just one, or a few major companies would come in board, it would help normalize men in skirts across the board.

There is a list here (link) of LGBT friendly businesses. Of note is some pretty major banks, in addition to national names. I personally feel banks are important as trans-awareness grows. Many smaller companies go through larger banks for financing expansion. Companies that are hostile to transgender people may find themselves eventually being scrutinized out of business loans. And it's a viable concern for the bank, it has to be weighed that if the business in question is ran by a bunch of bigots, they might not be in business very long.

I applaud Pepsi for the rainbow heart image I saw on one of the sodas I purchased at work one day. While many of us are not homosexual, or may not consider ourselves transgender... acceptance and an overall tolerant attitude in society benefits us all!

Best of luck you all... sending all my love!
-Moon Shadow
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Thank you Moon.

I don't get the sense that any company that says they're LGBT-friendly has fully thought all of the possibilities through, but then again, it's all a work in progress!
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by whorton »

In my Humble opinion, no it has not helped. The reasons are twofold;

1. There is an American crossdressing support group called tri-ess. The are a support for heterosexual crossdressers, THEIR SPOUCES AND FAMILIES. That fact is included in their constitution. They have been around at least since the early '90's. The group helped many ( myself and then wife as well) that crossdressing was not perverted or homosexual. In the early 90's there were 47 chapters. Today only 14 remain. Why? Transgender activists who joined wanted to take group in the TG direction. Obviously the needs are different. Crossdressers don't want discussions of who the best SRS Surgeon is, hormone levels, or other TG related items, especially if they are just coming out to wife and family.. They want to reassure that they are straight and not wanting SRS. There are now 3 TG support groups and none for crossdressers.

2. The other matter is that since the explosion of Transgenderism, we now have a majority of "former" crossdressers coming out as Transgender instead of Crossdressing.

Ok maybe they were TG to start with and crossdressed as part of it. But the more I read and see, the more I am convinced that through intern dialogue, they see people out as openly TG, and convince that they are in fact "A woman trapped in a mans body." A very rare condition before 1960 and phenomenal today.

As I said perhaps they are Transgender, but many that change sex have regrets. My expectation is that it's east to get caught up in the idea that a sex change will make you happy, but most that undergo the surgery have severe depression as well.

Most of us are grounded in that we are men who enjoy expressing their feminine side or wearing cloths taylored for the opposite sex....BUT we have no desire to change sex.

People need to step back from the hoopla, realize that no matter what they do, they still have an X and a Y chromosome. They will never be the gorgeous 25, or 35, or whatever age of women they envy.

I am not disparaging Transgender people, just that they consider carefully what their ultimate goal is. If you crossdress, you crossdress. If you want to change sex, you are transgender. They are not one and the same.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by moonshadow »

whorton wrote:2. The other matter is that since the explosion of Transgenderism, we now have a majority of "former" crossdressers coming out as Transgender instead of Crossdressing.
I'm sorry, but this line brought out a bit of a chuckle in me just by the way it's worded. It seems like you're ranting about people "switching teams"... :lol:

Nah... seriously, I suspect the biggest reason for your observation is the crossdressers you speak of, with the more welcoming social climate in regards to transgender rights have just reconciled their inner self and realized they were transgender all along.
whorton wrote:People need to step back from the hoopla, realize that no matter what they do, they still have an X and a Y chromosome.
Its not always that simple...
whorton wrote: They will never be the gorgeous 25, or 35, or whatever age of women they envy.
Not sure if I agree with that. There is beauty is just about everyone.
whorton wrote:I am not disparaging Transgender people, just that they consider carefully what their ultimate goal is.
I'm sure it occupies much of their mental energy. I don't think being transgender is something that one comes up with over night.

I understand your angst man, but I'd stand down a little, you're painting an awful lot of people with a very simple brush. Also, note that not all transgender people undergo sex reassignment surgery. Most can't afford it. A good many are homeless and unemployed. Many also don't take hormones either for the same reasons, or just because they don't want to. It's all very personal.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

moonshadow wrote:
whorton wrote:2. The other matter is that since the explosion of Transgenderism, we now have a majority of "former" crossdressers coming out as Transgender instead of Crossdressing.
I'm sorry, but this line brought out a bit of a chuckle in me just by the way it's worded. It seems like you're ranting about people "switching teams"... :lol:

Nah... seriously, I suspect the biggest reason for your observation is the crossdressers you speak of, with the more welcoming social climate in regards to transgender rights have just reconciled their inner self and realized they were transgender all along.
I'm not entirely sure that's necessarily true, Moon. Consider the possibility of somebody who "crossdresses" and has opened up about it and sought help to understand themselves; they eventually reach their doctor or a psychologist or psychiatrist. Within those consultations there is much exploration "guided" by the professional; that guidance being only as good as the practitioner and their experience in such matters. What if the practitioner has the same influences of "western societal norms" that they equate the "crossdressing" with being on the sliding transgender spectrum? Is the patient now "finding themselves" or being "guided" into a societally acceptable box?

I also question why MtF transgender outnumbers FtM so significantly. It might be increases in certain hormone (oestrogen) levels in the environment having an effect upon the individual, in which case there are surely tests that can be undertaken; but, is it also possible that this is now the "favoured" analysis as to why somebody would choose certain clothing, i.e. skirts, dresses, high heels, etc?

I accept that there might be a proportional difference between MtF and FtM but I'm not convinced that the numbers, as they stand in western societies, "stack up".
moonshadow wrote:
whorton wrote:People need to step back from the hoopla, realize that no matter what they do, they still have an X and a Y chromosome.
Its not always that simple...
Agreed, there are complexities in anything and everything "human"; but do the "professionals" look for something more than is truly necessary?
moonshadow wrote:
whorton wrote: They will never be the gorgeous 25, or 35, or whatever age of women they envy.
Not sure if I agree with that. There is beauty is just about everyone.
I know what you mean, Moon; inner beauty. Also, that happiness and contentment inside make the outside more harmonious; whereas sadness and anguish can make the "prettiest" contort into ugly.
moonshadow wrote:
whorton wrote:I am not disparaging Transgender people, just that they consider carefully what their ultimate goal is.
I'm sure it occupies much of their mental energy. I don't think being transgender is something that one comes up with over night.

I understand your angst man, but I'd stand down a little, you're painting an awful lot of people with a very simple brush. Also, note that not all transgender people undergo sex reassignment surgery. Most can't afford it. A good many are homeless and unemployed. Many also don't take hormones either for the same reasons, or just because they don't want to. It's all very personal.
I also agree here that when it comes to individuals it is rare that things are simple; we are all complex beings with complex personalities. But, what if the individual succumbs to external societal pressures that their "choices" are not normal? What if, for no more arbitrary reason than "society expects", the individual is "boxed" into transgender?

All of these pressures might actually exacerbate the individuals' problems rather than help them to their solution. So, now let's add in employment, both finding and maintaining; security (roof overhead); relationships - both close and extended.

Nothing is stronger than its "weakest link"; we each need a certain level of support to function normally. I find it curious that those closest to us are often the least accepting of revelations (I use that word as opposed to changes since it seems most male "crossdressers" have had an "interest" from early years, it's just that we've kept it hidden because of fabricated societal conventions).

This is an area where we can benefit from the tolerance and acceptance gained by the LGBT community, even though we are "none of the above"; however, the problem is how to tap into that support without becoming "one of the above".

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by moonshadow »

You make some good points D.C. Points that I can not for certain refute. Particularly the "guidance" of professionals. I also noted the remark you made on increased estrogen levels in the environment. Me being someone what of a conspiracy theorist, I can't say that this is by complete accident!

I certainly hope you're wrong, but alas, I can not look you in the proverbial eye and say you are, for I simply do not know. I'd like to think that the plight of transgender people is genuine. I'd hate to think I've put all this effort into supporting a glorious fad, or worse, backing a government coverup. The thought sends chills down my spine.
Disaffected.citizen wrote:This is an area where we can benefit from the tolerance and acceptance gained by the LGBT community, even though we are "none of the above"; however, the problem is how to tap into that support without becoming "one of the above?".
As a flamboyant skirt wearer who appears "male" in all aspects other than clothing, I can offer these tips:
  • Don't worry about tapping that support if you don't want to. There are a trans-people who will shun us anyway, but likewise there are many who will embrace us as one of their own. The choice is always yours if you want to enter that group or not.
  • Know your rights. Crossdressing, men wearing skirts, etc is generally not illegal anywhere in countries of western culture. Granted, there will be hurtles, such as employment, marriage, family, etc. But you won't get locked up for it. I know I rant a lot about "religious freedom" laws getting in the way, but in all honesty, I live in one of the most religious regions of the U.S. and I never had a problem. So I'd say out of 10,000 businesses, one might turn you away... okay... just avoid that one. Fair enough?
  • Don't be obnoxious! I actually should put this one as number one, because it's the most important. As long as you're not obnoxious, people will generally leave you alone. The point being, if people are leaving you alone, then you really don't need the aide of the trans-lobby anyway.
  • If you don't identify as a woman, don't act like one. Stay out of women's bathrooms, and aim to be a gentleman even when wearing skirts.
  • Be confident. Smile when you walk around like you have every right to be there... (because YOU DO!) Be nonchalant about your skirt wearing, as though it isn't a big deal. (because IT ISN'T)
  • Join skirt cafe and join in the discussion of male "non crossdressing (no underwear)" skirt and dress wearing in addition to other gender related fashion freedom!
By practicing those simple points, I feel your life will be fine as a male skirt wearer regardless of what the trans-lobby is up to.

As for me, I realize as a self identifying gender-fluid person, I stand to be shunned by some hardcore trans-people... Meh... I could care less. Some may consider me transgender, others may not. I never get bent out of shape when someone refers to me as transgender, especially if it's in friendly context. It's all labels anyway. I run into the same problems with those who share similar religious beliefs of mine.

At the end of the day, you are free to be who you are, and you don't need to measure up to anyone else's expectations of what they think you ought to be. I think a lot of crossdresers/transgender mental breakdowns can be eliminated if people would just lay off and let people be without trying to box everyone in one category or another.

One thing we should never do is attempt to read someone else's heart and soul. If someone chooses to confide in you their deepest soul searching discoveries, never berate them or tell them it's invalid. They know their heart... we don't.
-Moon Shadow
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by crfriend »

This one sums it up:
moonshadow wrote:[*]If you don't identify as a woman, don't act like one. Stay out of women's bathrooms, and aim to be a gentleman even when wearing skirts.
It sums it up quite eloquently, too.

Yesterday was quite good. I picked up a couple of very positive responses to my attire (my green plaid long "walking skirt", purple waistcoat, and white shirt) and nary even a sideways glance. It being close to St. Patrick's Day there was some confusion whether I was "in costume" or not, and when I pointed out that this is just my regular attire I got one comment of, "That's awesome. What makes America great." and another almost as good (although the guy managed to confuse an ankle-length skirt for a kilt).
It's not always that simple.
Not always, but statistically you'll find that it is the vast majority of the time. I'm not saying that it's "one size fits all" -- quite far from -- but rather that "one size fits most" or at the very least "many". There are also the problems with the way that societal expectations have been skewed over the past half-century to be concerned about and which are now bearing fruit.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

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I believe the whole LGBT movement has helped us by increasing acceptance of variety in general and of non-binary identity in particular.

Now it's true, some LGBT adherents seeking legitimacy fall into their own binary mindset, such as lesbian vs. all others, transgender or all others, and so forth. And some people may progress from binary views only to tertiary, as in make, female, transgender, with transgender being a stereotype of all others. But both of those views, like all stereotyping, are false.

I know there are those here who just want to wear a skirt but not fall, even partially, under any of the LGBT categories. I view this as semantics but to each his own.

After all, as Voltaire once remarked, "All generalities are false."
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by hoborob »

moonshadow wrote:[*]Join skirt cafe and join in the discussion of male "non crossdressing (no underwear)" skirt and dress wearing in addition to other gender related fashion freedom![/list]
I have a really good question regarding this particular statement Moon. The whole point of SkirtCafe is that the aim is to get folks to stop prejudging people based on the outer clothing they wear. It follows then that we should also not be prejudging people based on what they wear underneath as well. Thus the statement seems to me to have no place at all in this topic I would think.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by moonshadow »

hoborob wrote:
I have a really good question regarding this particular statement Moon. The whole point of SkirtCafe is that the aim is to get folks to stop prejudging people based on the outer clothing they wear. It follows then that we should also not be prejudging people based on what they wear underneath as well. Thus the statement seems to me to have no place at all in this topic I would think.
Because it's in the rules. The reason for the rule is well covered in other topics.

But what was your question? :P
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by Ralph »

Following on to moonshadow's reply, I can sort of see the sense in that. The forums on this board are about fashion, which is by its very nature clothing visible to others. What we wear underneath has no bearing on the topic.

It's not a matter of judging participants for what type of underwear they prefer -- I would wager that more than a few do in fact choose items intended for the ladies. It's more a goal of keeping the discussions purely on clothing without straying into topics more suitable for TG-centric boards, like using breast forms and bras to pass as female. This site is called skirtcafe, not knickerscafe ;-)

I dropped out of more than a few crossdressing sites because it seemed like all the participants cared about was how many panties and bras in their collection and how sexy it made them feel.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by hoborob »

Thank you Ralph for stating it that way. And I do agree with your comments. I too have dropped out of a few "crossdressing forums" for the same reasons you stated as well as some where the rest of the folks seemed to be into the pornographic and sexual side of the idea. I've even been propositioned on a couple I dropped out of. The forums I am still on where crossdressing does get discussed specifically prohibit the discussions from going to the sexual side and the moderators will stomp that out very quickly. The two that I do participate on are item specific but the other areas do get some coverage.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us

Post by moonshadow »

Don't get me wrong, I could care less what any one of us wears under our skirts, dresses and so forth. I just find the topic of underwear uninteresting. I don't find it particularly flattering, elegant, or anything of the like.

To me, underwear (men and women's) is like a picture hanger in a wall (a nail). By itself, it's quite boring and bland... it's a nail after all. It's necessary yes- to hold up the picture. I'd much rather discuss the painting the nail supports however.

But that's just me. I'm a little strange, but then again, if I were normal, I probably wouldn't be here! :D
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