Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Thank you Pelmut for patiently and comprehensively responding to these all too common misperceptions.

I just wish to clarify one question you had, when it comes to transpeople making a legal issue of how they were addressed or otherwise treated, the cases here in the US are no different than what Pelmut described in the UK.

Finally, as far as changing restrooms from gendered to gender-neutral goes, it's much less of an undertaking than Dust describes. Installing taller stall dividers doesn't take much planning nor is it that big of an expense. Especially when you consider the wretched state of so many public restrooms. I'd like a nickel for every one of them that I've gone into where the latch doesn't work!
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by rivegauche »

I don't think the current attention on transgender is helping anyone, not even the transgendered people. When an icon like Germaine Greer can be no platformed things have gone bonkers. People like JK Rowling and being horribly attacked by people who claim to be preaching tolerance!!

I am not remotely transgendered but go a bit further than most members of he Skirt Café because I often dress and present as a woman. It is acting - I do it for fun. However for the public, anyone who does this obviously wants to be a woman. I don't. I think recreational cross-dressers and men who just want to wear a skirt do not exist for most people - they just see a bloke in what they regard as womenswear and conclude he wants to be a woman. I do not pass as a woman. I look good in a dress (I usually add a bra and forms) but no one is going to mistake me for a woman. No one gives me a hard time. I get treated very well in shops, hotels, wherever, and no one shouts at me in the street whether I have gone the whole hog or simply worn a skirt or dress. The one place I get abuse is on a site called crossdressers.com, of all places, where they insist I must be transgender and if I believe otherwise I am lying or deluded.

I am staying out of this 'debate' because it is not a debate - it is a vicious shouting match (I mean the wider one, not the one on this thread). I will just do my own thing and lead by example. I try to avoid using a toilet when I am out and in about 300 excursions dressed as a woman I have only used a Ladies about 3-4 times - in hotels and with permission - except on one occasion I had a woman friend with me for moral support. I have used fitting rooms in womenswear stores or in the dress section of department stores more often dressed as a male than I have dressed as a woman, without any problems. I just wish they were a bit more private - full height doors (not curtains) that can be locked would help everyone. There are shops that sell to both genders that have only one fitting room with proper private cubicles and no one cares. There are now all-gender toilets and people are generally fine with that. The sky does not fall in. What happened to "live and let live"? I had hoped that was a quote from the Bible but unfortunately it isn't.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

However for the public, anyone who does this obviously wants to be a woman.


Where do you get that? What is your evidence?

In fact, the way you describe your life implies the opposite. As best as I can tell, nearly everyone takes me for what I am, a man who prefers dresses to trousers who takes some pains to look good in them: I have my nails done, shave my legs, have grown my hair down to my jaw line, wear at least a little makeup; but usually get called "Sir" by sales associates and wait staff. The most frequent exceptions being when I am out with a gay woman friend of mine. We often get asked, "What would you ladies like?" But anyone who interacts with me on a regular basis never has any doubt of my sexual identity or orientation.

Finally, as to the habitues of crossdressers.com saying you MUST be "transgendered," do they mean in the general sense that you're somewhere in that grey area between the two poles of the Gender Binary, or in the specific sense of being stuck in the wrong body? If it's the former, they're just making a statement of fact. Frankly, by that standard, nearly everyone is transgendered in one way or another. If it's the latter sense, I'm floored. Back when I was an active crossdresser, mid-80's to the Aughts, we all accepted one-another's self-identification. If anything, I wondered why a few of my peers all of a sudden decided they were, as we put it then, "transsexual." But I never expressed those doubts because they knew themselves better than I did.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:57 pm
When an icon like Germaine Greer can be no platformed things have gone bonkers. People like JK Rowling and being horribly attacked by people who claim to be preaching tolerance!!
I agree that attacking people in that way is wrong, but a bit more light needs to be shone on what they did that provoked it:

How do you think transgender people feel when Germaine Greer says things like:
Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel.
“I do understand that some people are born intersex and they deserve support in coming to terms with their gender but it’s not the same thing. A man who gets his d**k chopped off is actually inflicting an extraordinary act of violence on himself.
She doesn't even know that intersex is nothing to do with gender and yet her views were held up by the media as those of an expert.  There should have been no need to no-platform her, she should never have been invited on that particular platform in the first place; her views on that subject are no more valid than those of an ignorant passer-by.

I have every sympathy with J.K. Rowling for the trauma she has been through, but it was absolutely nothing to do with transgender people and she has allowed herself to become a tool of the anti-trans brigade by thoughtlessly repeating their mantras.  She has gone down in the estimation of lot of people, trans and cis, for her lack of understanding of the plight of trans children and her apparent support for those who are trying to do them further harm.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by moonshadow »

Though I don't consider myself transgender, I've said it before, and I still hold to it, if the trans community is willing to accept me into their fold, then I'm grateful for the friendship and camaraderie.

I no longer try to analyze the trans situation, nor do I offer up opinions on the matter. It is what it is and we are what we are, and I'm happy to support and stand with transgender people with all my heart.

I honestly have no idea why Rowling even felt it necessary to offer up an opinion anyway... why are so many people seemingly obsessed with being contrary all of the time?

Frankly, the life and times of a transgender person really isn't any of her business, nor is it ours. Either love them anyway or leave them alone.

So... she says transwomen aren't women... whoopdiedo! Who the hell crowned her the Supreme queen of what is and isn't? Her books indicate witches are females and wizards are male... bullsh!t... Male witches exist, and have been written about longer than her majesty has been around... so what does she know of gender anyway?

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by Jim »

moonshadow wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:41 pm

So... she says transwomen aren't women... whoopdiedo! Who the hell crowned her the Supreme queen of what is and isn't?
I find what helps me most in getting along with others on such issues is to understand that many words have multiple definitions. A transwoman is a woman by some definitions and not by others. Simple. Everyone knows that words can have many meanings.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by crfriend »

Jim wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:43 pm
I find what helps me most in getting along with others on such issues is to understand that many words have multiple definitions.
My personal tactic for getting along with folks is to evaluate each one as an individual and to formulate ways of coming to a common understanding -- which is almost always possible. From experience, the only folks I find I don't get on well with in person are the very hard-core point-of-view pushers who simply demand too much, and those with "faith" so powerful that it blinds them to what passes for reality today. The former I tend to regard as boors and the latter as simply hopeless.

I have said it before but it bears repeating, "There is vastly more that unites us than divides us as human beings. Seek the commonality and the solutions where all can benefit."
Last edited by crfriend on Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fix typos
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by moonshadow »

I debated on posting this on the "Scottish Hate Crime" thread, but feel it's more appropriate here....

For those who hold the notion that we are in no way connected to the LGBT and cross dressing subculture...

Wait for it. I expect many areas of the U.S. to bring back anti-crossdressing laws, many of which were still being enforced just a few short decades ago... and our new biblical court will uphold every bit of it.

Wait and see how that effects you stopping to get gas in a skirt...
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:03 am
For those who hold the notion that we are in no way connected to the LGBT and cross dressing subculture...

Wait for it. I expect many areas of the U.S. to bring back anti-crossdressing laws, many of which were still being enforced just a few short decades ago... and our new biblical court will uphold every bit of it.

Wait and see how that effects you stopping to get gas in a skirt...
We're not going to be the direct target, but rather collateral damage in that one. Unjustly so, but that's the way that what passes for modern society operates.

At least some will have the world they wished for. I hope they enjoy it -- until it closes on them, that is.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:25 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:03 am
For those who hold the notion that we are in no way connected to the LGBT and cross dressing subculture...

Wait for it. I expect many areas of the U.S. to bring back anti-crossdressing laws, many of which were still being enforced just a few short decades ago... and our new biblical court will uphold every bit of it.

Wait and see how that effects you stopping to get gas in a skirt...
We're not going to be the direct target, but rather collateral damage in that one. Unjustly so, but that's the way that what passes for modern society operates.

At least some will have the world they wished for. I hope they enjoy it -- until it closes on them, that is.
Indeed... will it be nation wide? Likely not, but it can certainly effect little dots on the map.

All we can do is leverage the "power" of the 14th amendment and hope for the best. If the local powers begin to pass ordinances to prohibit the wearing of clothes considered "outside of one's assigned sex", then it is the beginning of the end.

That type of tyranny I find unacceptable. Note, this isn't about being shunned or turned away from private businesses. This is about a guy like me being hassled by law enforcement simply for sitting in his own yard, visible from the street, wearing a skirt.

And pardon me for what will be considered a crass and insensitive comment, but the fact remains, most of the hard core conservatives I've argued with on this site, frankly probably won't live long enough to see the damage they've voted for.

Yeah... I guess we'll never be a "socialist nation"... it's just too bad the ultimate choice came down to "socialism" or a puritan themed authoritarian oligarchy. At least with the former we'd have gotten a health card and freedom to clad ourselves as we see fit. Under the latter... we have the right to work and pray (to a state approved deity) . Yay us... :roll:

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by GenderBlender »

moonshadow wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:21 pm
crfriend wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:25 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:03 am
For those who hold the notion that we are in no way connected to the LGBT and cross dressing subculture...

Wait for it. I expect many areas of the U.S. to bring back anti-crossdressing laws, many of which were still being enforced just a few short decades ago... and our new biblical court will uphold every bit of it.

Wait and see how that effects you stopping to get gas in a skirt...
We're not going to be the direct target, but rather collateral damage in that one. Unjustly so, but that's the way that what passes for modern society operates.

At least some will have the world they wished for. I hope they enjoy it -- until it closes on them, that is.
Indeed... will it be nation wide? Likely not, but it can certainly effect little dots on the map.

All we can do is leverage the "power" of the 14th amendment and hope for the best. If the local powers begin to pass ordinances to prohibit the wearing of clothes considered "outside of one's assigned sex", then it is the beginning of the end.

That type of tyranny I find unacceptable. Note, this isn't about being shunned or turned away from private businesses. This is about a guy like me being hassled by law enforcement simply for sitting in his own yard, visible from the street, wearing a skirt.

And pardon me for what will be considered a crass and insensitive comment, but the fact remains, most of the hard core conservatives I've argued with on this site, frankly probably won't live long enough to see the damage they've voted for.

Yeah... I guess we'll never be a "socialist nation"... it's just too bad the ultimate choice came down to "socialism" or a puritan themed authoritarian oligarchy. At least with the former we'd have gotten a health card and freedom to clad ourselves as we see fit. Under the latter... we have the right to work and pray (to a state approved deity) . Yay us... :roll:

True freedom is in peril.... Fight like hell!
The Czech Republic is one of the most atheist states in the world. But that does not mean that we completely reject God or faith. But it occurs to me that we are more free-spirited and tolerant as a result. We are actually an example of this because we had a wedding in an evangelical church, although I am a Catholic, my wife was not baptized at all, and we both had beautiful white dresses and satin pumps for the ceremony.

But if I look a little behind the hill, into strongly Catholic Poland, I find cities and villages proudly declaring themselves as LGBTQ-free Zones, a church offering help in treating homosexuality, and other things I would expect in the Middle Ages rather than the early 21st century.

But why? For what reason? Who cares today what you are wearing? Why is anyone interested in something like that at all?

In my opinion, Western civilization is entering a deep existential crisis, society is strongly polarized and radicalized, and any excuse is right to fight. But fight whom? We really don't have real enemy. So lets make one. LGBTQ? Racial? Political? Let's be it. And so, again and again, we repeat the same mistakes.

But in essence, these people have no problem with the fact that we wear elements of women's clothing, but they find it useful in the political struggle. They pull us out as an example of perversion and contradiction to the right order of things, and promise potential not-so-intelligent voters that they will fix it. And to tell you the truth, I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. We can only keep our fingers crossed that, as in the Middle Ages, they will not want to burn us like witches in the end.

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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by moonshadow »

Thanks for your input genderblender. I hope more than a few take the time to read it and see the barrel we are staring down (Poland) here in the U.S.

Now I'm not saying that overnight the entire population of Russell County Virginia is going to line up on my doorstep with torches lit and pitch forks demanding my head in a pike. No, in fact, I doubt most locals care either way... there lies part of the problem though... they don't care.

No, rather, it will be one or a few "concerned citizens" that have grown tired of seeing my skirted ass at Walmart or the local grocery store, and they petition to the local board of supervisors (BOS) draft some kind of "public decency" ordinance, worded similarly to the old anti-crossdressing laws of old.

These little communities and counties are operated by a lot of old money and those who lobby are extremely right wing religious. My daughter often tells stories of these puritan apostolics with their long modest denim skirts to the floor, shuffling into where she works and demanding that they shut off the music playing over the store P.A. as they deem it "offensive".

The music in question... hard core rap? Alternative? Heavy metal?

No sir.... Top 40 country from the 90s mostly, and sometimes golden "oldies"...

These people are scattered in little towns across the land... and they are just waiting patiently for the high courts to become evangelical enough to honor their wishes with regards to their ultra puritan world view and agenda.

They are, in essence, the American taliban, and they grow more powerful by the day.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by rode_kater »

As the saying goes:

In Europe the state is protected from the church
In the US the church is protected from the state

Here I am glad of my protected freedom of expression, which covers all of this (and also makes it very difficult to require people to wear face masks but that's a whole other ball of wax).

Back on topic, personally I think the attention on transgendered individuals has helped somewhat, but it needs to go further so people realise that transgendered people are vastly outnumbered by the estimated 3%-5% of men that crossdress. Whether we fall in this category is another thing: my experience is that most men who want to wear female clothes actually want to look feminine. I think fashion designers can help here, since it's a whole new market for them.

My feeling however is that it's gathering speed recently, not sure why.
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by moonshadow »

rode_kater wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:36 pm
Back on topic, personally I think the attention on transgendered individuals has helped somewhat, but it needs to go further so people realise that transgendered people are vastly outnumbered by the estimated 3%-5% of men that crossdress. Whether we fall in this category is another thing: my experience is that most men who want to wear female clothes actually want to look feminine. I think fashion designers can help here, since it's a whole new market for them.
Yeah, my pessimism aside, perhaps all of us (freestylers, crossdressers, and trans-people) might just have enough foot hold to keep from sliding back.

But we'd better remain vigilant! This is no time to be complacent and assume the issue is settled!
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Re: Has the attention on transgendered individuals helped us?

Post by Grok »

rode_kater wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:36 pm

transgendered people are vastly outnumbered by the estimated 3%-5% of men that crossdress. Whether we fall in this category is another thing: my experience is that most men who want to wear female clothes actually want to look feminine.
I wonder about the break down of that 3%-5%. Does this refer to Trannys, or free stylers, or what?
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