Married man who likes women's clothing

[skirtingtoday]

Here is an article I have just unearthed from about a year ago - I can empathise with a lot of the content and understand the frustrations he feels about the "fad" for men being seen to be manly and anything less that that being effeminate though not actually gay. I also concur with many of the comments below it.

http://www.rolereboot.org/life/details/ ... and-female

[partlyscot]

Interesting link, thanks for that. One line resonated.

>But one isn't just assigned a gender. One is socialized into it,<

And I don't like all the facets that I've been assigned, I am in the process of rejecting some of my socializations. Part of why I like to wear a skirt and hosiery is the desire to flaunt it, in a way that's seen as "feminine." Part of it is wanting to be gentler. But I don't want to be seen as...limp, ineffective, submissive.

Labels make it so hard to get some points across, but how else do you try to discuss this? I am trying to use words that get the point across, but don't bring gender binary mind sets into it. I prefer clothing that is fitted, sleeker, smoother, more overt, has better use of colour, sexier, to a point. I'm not into clothing that I, would describe as girly, frilly, or lacy. Oddly enough, I'm not overly fond of such stuff on women. Or women that are "limp, ineffective, submissive."

[Ralph]

I *do* prefer the "girly" styles, both on myself and on women, but... that line you quoted
>But one isn't just assigned a gender. One is socialized into it,<
... just bugs me. Not that I think he's wrong, but I think society is wrong. I think it's the reason so many men get brainwashed into thinking they are "a woman trapped in a man's body". I like soft colors and pretty decorations, and society tells me that only girls like those things, therefore I must be a girl.

The whole problem comes from the separation of sex and gender. My biological sex is male, but my inner gender is female. What the hell does that even mean? How many society-imposed "female" traits does one need before one is officially a woman? If I like pink but I also like playing with GI Joe instead of Barbie, what does that make me? I think there would be far less gender dysphoria in the world if society would butt out and quit telling people "Girls do this, boys do that."

[Grok]

Looked up "ambigender" on line. It seems to mean "of both genders."

[partlyscot]

but... that line you quoted
>But one isn't just assigned a gender. One is socialized into it,<
... just bugs me. Not that I think he's wrong, but I think society is wrong.

Oh very much so, fully in agreement there.

I think it's the reason so many men get brainwashed into thinking they are "a woman trapped in a man's body". I like soft colors and pretty decorations, and society tells me that only girls like those things, therefore I must be a girl.

Again, total agreement. I've said before, that I think this is behind some examples of crossdressing. "I'm not allowed to do that as a guy? Fine, I'll be a woman then"

The whole problem comes from the separation of sex and gender. My biological sex is male, but my inner gender is female. What the hell does that even mean? How many society-imposed "female" traits does one need before one is officially a woman? If I like pink but I also like playing with GI Joe instead of Barbie, what does that make me? I think there would be far less gender dysphoria in the world if society would butt out and quit telling people "Girls do this, boys do that."

The trouble is, that in most peoples mind, sex and gender isn't separated. For most, all aspects of male/female, masculine/feminine, are firmly binary, and all tied together with attraction, orientation, roles, and display. Not even close to the truth.

[Sinned]

Thanks for bringing this article to my attention and the following are my thoughts resulting from it. I also empathise and agree with pretty much all that's in it. I like some clothes more normally associated with women. Some tops, skirts and so on, even one or two that could be classed as frilly but produces a good look with some other item in my wardrobe. I no more want to look like a woman or be a woman than all of you. I also have difficulty reassuring MOH of this as she says that I have changed a lot and could change more. I haven't changed - just let loose what was bottled up inside. As regards gender I'm somewhere in between female and male, sexually I am very much male. I can't even say that I'm a female trapped in a male body because I don't feel that way. I also have difficulty socialising with males on anything beyond a superficial level and didn't fit in with the macho image at school. I was always in the top 10 throughout my schooling and interested myself in such as football simply to have something to discuss with the other boys. But there again being in a single sex grammar school I had little contact with girls so was shy around them. Church was what saved me really as I had lots of friends among girls there as I had grown up with them and didn't really consider them girls - just friends. MOH said that there were lots of girls at Church that "fancied" me but I was unaware of it - they were friends. I certainly didn't mature until well after I met MOH ( if I ever really have matured - perhaps I have grown up but not matured, if you understand that, maybe I'm still a boy at heart ) and assumed the responsibility of a mortgage and family.

[JohnH]

I *do* prefer the "girly" styles, both on myself and on women, but... that line you quoted
>But one isn't just assigned a gender. One is socialized into it,<
... just bugs me. Not that I think he's wrong, but I think society is wrong. I think it's the reason so many men get brainwashed into thinking they are "a woman trapped in a man's body". I like soft colors and pretty decorations, and society tells me that only girls like those things, therefore I must be a girl.

The whole problem comes from the separation of sex and gender. My biological sex is male, but my inner gender is female. What the hell does that even mean? How many society-imposed "female" traits does one need before one is officially a woman? If I like pink but I also like playing with GI Joe instead of Barbie, what does that make me? I think there would be far less gender dysphoria in the world if society would butt out and quit telling people "Girls do this, boys do that."

I take it even further. I now admit I am taking male to female hormone replacement therapy medication. (M2F HRT). However I have no desire to have SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). Furthermore I make absolutely no attempt to sound like a woman - in fact I have a very deep masculine voice I will NOT change. I feel much better with the medication. If you look at Crossdressers.com I have done a lot of postings under the username of "JohannaH". I do NOT think of myself as a woman trapped in a man's body but as an individual with a masculine and a feminine side. I am not a gentle meek milquetoast by ANY means. If I express that I might be a male on that forum that posting is immediately removed. In fact for awhile I was using the username of JohnH on that forum but I caught so much flack I changed it to JohannaH. My name is John and I am a male who will not change the gender marker to "F" (female). I as a heterosexual male also have a wonderful monogamous relation with my dear wife.

There is a section of "Transmasculine" where women seek to be men - but the activity is very limited. But in the Transsexual Forum section where most of the members who are genetic men seek to become women there is SO much discussion of psychological difficulties. This is brought on by the stupid "masculine anxiety" neurosis brought on by well meaning parents demanding their sons "man up"

John

[Grok]

Some men seem to have been born with a feminine streak in their personalities...that is, seeking to express themselves in a feminine manner. Sort of the reverse of a Tomboy.

[JohnH]

It is a double standard if there is ever one where it is acceptable for a female to be a tomboy but it is shameful for a male to be a nancigirl (a male with a feminine streak).

John

[skirtingtoday]

Several things struck me from the article as well.

As PS has already commented, “one is socialized into a gender” rings so true. MOH has on occasions said to me that she wants a “man to be a man” and that she doesn’t want him to look like Arnie or be a brute. I think she believes that “men” wear trousers and not skirts even though she predominantly wears trousers herself.

Another comment was that if another fellow commented he cross-dressed, he would have been fine but that it was different when it is oneself. One of my golf mates has dressed “in drag” with his rugby mates several times. MOH is fine with gay pride parades (where occasionally men “go the whole hog” with falsies, wigs, heels, stockings, petticoats etc) but it is quite different when it comes to her partner (me) – even to consider simply wearing a skirt. She even had problems with a kilt thinking it was only my excuse to go “au naturel”. Tights she does not seem to have a problem with oddly enough.

For me at school, when we had football practice (that is, soccer to the US guys), I was always one of the last to be picked in the team and stuck at right back position. I simply made sure that if they were attacking, I could always get the ball off the attacking side( to their profound frustration I must say). School days were not that happy for me generally as I was always quiet and not into following the “gang” so I was a bit of a loner.

Another aspect that rings true with me is on socialising with other boys and or girls. Once I was at University, and going to discos, I was always more comfortable with talking to other women. MOH said she was always envious of my easy chat with other women when we were out on a date. Some fellows I talked to at the bar made comments such as, “That girl keeps looking over at you and looks like she fancies you” MOH like how I was “different” from the usual blokes in that I didn’t just prop up the bar and listen to Genesis (the pop group that is). My music preference was shall we say eclectic and I particularly liked the “Glam rock” groups such as David Bowie, Sweet, Mud, T.Rex, Gary Glitter, Alex Harvey, Alvin Stardust and many more. (Still do like them!)

A pertinent comment from the article is that, “A man who acts in traditionally feminine ways is humiliating himself” and is therefore inferior. Whilst I disagree that that is not the case, society does make it that way. As the article writer says, “I look forward to the day when all of us will have the freedom to be who we want to be, regardless of what's between our legs.” I am still hopeful that small changes might still get me comfortable at home skirted but there has been so much “damage” done in previous “discussions” that I don’t think it will ever happen for me.

And finally, as JohnH says why is it OK for a girl to be a tomboy and NOT OK for a boy to be a nancigril?

[Jim]

Wouldn't it be nice if we just got rid of the "masculine" and "feminine' nonsense about clothes and behavior, and just let people be themselves?

[crfriend]

MOH has on occasions said to me that she wants a “man to be a man” and that she doesn’t want him to look like Arnie or be a brute.

Isn't she contradicting herself just a little bit with that observation? I mean Arnie is one heck of an example of a "man's man", just like the "Marlboro Man" before him. How about Clint Eastwood.

Stereotypically, men aren't particular sympathetic or empathetic, does she discourage you from those traits?

But, here I find myself applying logic to the situation -- and we all know that doesn't work.

I think she believes that “men” wear trousers and not skirts even though she predominantly wears trousers herself.

Imagine the firestorm if you decided to "be a man" and assert yourself by demanding that she stop crossdressing if she continues to deny you the option of swapping trousers for a skirt!

Another aspect that rings true with me is on socialising with other boys and or girls. Once I was at University, and going to discos, I was always more comfortable with talking to other women. MOH said she was always envious of my easy chat with other women when we were out on a date.

I have always found small-talk with guys to be pretty shallow unless there are interests that mesh well. I can go for hours on LASERs, computers, and whatnot if there's interest, but sports (which is what guys usually seem drawn to) put me off and always have. The gals usually touch on the more human side of things than, "Did you see that game-winning play last night?!"

From that last sentence, I also sense that there may be some lingering jealousy someplace and your "new" interest in skirts will invariably attract comments and conversation from the women more than it will from the men.

A pertinent comment from the article is that, “A man who acts in traditionally feminine ways is humiliating himself” and is therefore inferior. Whilst I disagree that that is not the case, society does make it that way.

This is one of the reasons that I realized early on when I started wearing skirts that if we want equality in terms of style and clothing then we'd better be supportive of equality in all aspects -- including banishing that ridiculous notion that women and femininity are somehow "inferior" to men and masculinity. Ultimately, it's more about building the case for feminism and femininity than it is about debasing men.

And finally, as JohnH says why is it OK for a girl to be a tomboy and NOT OK for a boy to be a nancigril?

See above; that's the notion of superior/inferior coming out.

[JohnH]

As PS has already commented, “one is socialized into a gender” rings so true. MOH has on occasions said to me that she wants a “man to be a man” and that she doesn’t want him to look like Arnie or be a brute. I think she believes that “men” wear trousers and not skirts even though she predominantly wears trousers herself.

For what's it worth:

I seem to recall that in ancient Rome if a man were to show up publicly his personal property would be seized. I also recall the Romans had a term for pants: feminalia. Back then a real man wore a skirt.

My dear wife has bought me a number of dresses and purses, and she wears pants predominantly. There are times around the house when I have a dress on and she wears pants.

John

[Grok]

There have been different schemes for classifying personalities. One I took a particular interest in was Meyers-Briggs. Under that scheme I am classified as an INFJ. To summarize, the INFJ type tends to have an androgynous personality. (In terms of the gender binary a friend placed me right in the middle of the male/female spectrum). This is perhaps easier for the female INFJ, as women are allowed much more latitude. It has been commented that INFJs tend not to have a strong Left Brain versus Right Brain differentiation-so tend not to fit into girly girl or macho men stereotypes

In my case I may be fortunate, because I seem to be below the radar. Perhaps because I come across as rather bland? Blandness seems to be socially acceptable for an adult, if not for a boy.

BTW, I took a series of aptitude tests, and my pattern was described as that of a "generalist." So neither my basic personality nor my aptitudes are particularly distinctive in terms of the gender binary. Again, I seem to be under the radar.

I took no interest in sports as was growing up, and still don't. But as a teen ager I was fascinated by the martial arts. I took karate classes for two years, and a class in foil fencing one summer. This interest was the nearest to stereotypical masculinity I ever got. Otherwise, I tend to be a geek.

[Caultron]

To me, a transvestite is someone who wears dresses, high heels, makeup, and a wig in order to look like a woman, or possibly to assume the role of one.

This is different from a man who decides that skirts looklike interesting and comfortable garments, and tries wearing one and likes it even though they're usually associated with women.

But both face the problem of social acceptance, and that leads to anxiety and the need for a certain degree of bravado.