Skirts = Power ?

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
Brad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: Rockland County, New York, USA

Skirts = Power ?

Post by Brad »

I've often read on this board and elsewhere that women won the right to wear pants because it was felt that skirts made women vulnerable and made it difficult to achieve equality with men. Of course this doesn't explain why women still choose to wear skirts, or why men are not able to do so.

I have a different theory. I went to elementary school in the early 1960s in the US. The teachers were mostly women who wore mid-calf length pencil skirts and clunky looking high heels that clicked on the hard wood floors. The girls were required to wear skirts with either knee socks or tights. Some of these skirts were quite short and the girls could not wear pants, not even in the bitter cold of winter. The teachers wielded enormous power over the students, constantly maintaining discipline thru yelling and threats of punishment. Physical punishments had been outlawed in my state but there were other punishments available: writing something 100 times, standing in the corner of the class, or not being allowed recess. I got chills just hearing their heels click on the floor knowing that I may be the next one punished and humilated.

There was a perception that the boys were dealt with more harshly than the girls by these female teachers. I really believe that these teachers had low expectations of good behaviour from the boys and acted accordingly. And thus, I learned that skirts meant power. And I wanted to know why I was excluded based solely on my gender. Would life have been better for me had I been a skirt wearing female?

I remember first having a desire to wear skirts at age 8 when I was in 3rd grade and it may have had something to do with these dysfunctional school teachers. Perhaps my desire is purely based on sociology and nothing to do with how my brain is wired.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
partlyscot
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 908
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by partlyscot »

I think that your view is very different to the mainstream, but there may be aspects of your theory that could be true in certain circumstances. Being forced to wear a skirt, or denied the option, can, certainly be due to instances of power imbalance, but it should not be.
User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Caultron »

Women's clothes aren't normally perceived as power symbols, but if you perceived them that way, I suppose it could drive you to gain that power by wearing that symbol.

However, it seems you'd also have to consider other power-symbol clothing, such as police uniforms and dark suits, and account for your attitude on those.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
Brad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: Rockland County, New York, USA

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Brad »

You bring up an excellent point Caultron and I don't have a response prepared.

Obviously I have enormous respect for the police since they serve to protect me, and also have power to issue a ticket to me, or arrest or imprison me. But I have no desire to be a police officer (I would never meet the qualifications anyway) nor do I attach any desire to wear a police uniform despite the power it conveys.
Sarongman
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1049
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:59 am
Location: Australia

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Sarongman »

Those, of my vintage, brought up in the Catholic education system ( myself excuded) remember fierce Nuns and Teaching order Brothers. There is a book written by a Queensland journalist who remembers the certain rattle (from hanging rosary beads) of a feared and very formidable Nun. The Christian Brothers who, later, taught him in High school were even more to be feared. Corporal punishment was the norm in the 50s and early 60s, and I was not immune being on the receiving end of 4 "cuts" of the cane for not doing homework.

Both the Brothers and the Nuns , in those preconciliar days (before Vat.2) wore habits that were---well---dresses for both genders. To those under their care they were as much to be feared as Brad's dysfunctional teachers, and it would be interesting if someone from my vintage were to input to this theory.
It will not always be summer: build barns---Hesiod
User avatar
couyalair
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:55 pm
Location: Malaga or Grenoble

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by couyalair »

Although in the school context mentioned skirts appeared to correlate with power, I am sure such a view is not common. Power over little children, wielding threats and mean punishments, is very little power, is it not.
Even in countries where men generally wear skirts or robes, I have yet to see (pictures) of any police or military except in trousers. Alas, this must definitely reinforce the common perception that trousers = power.

Martin
User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Caultron »

It doesn't seem, at the societal level, that it's common to associate skirts with power. However, that doesn't stop one individual, or some small percent, from doing so.

I sometimes wonder if some TVs might have had long-standing difficulty relating to women, and therefore attempt to resemble or become a woman under their control. This seems especially likely with respect to satin baby-girl dresses, mary jane shoes, and so forth. (Note that I say some TVs, not all. Life is never so simple, and each case is distinct.)

I went to eight years of Catholic grade school taught by nuns, and yes, they could be harsh when it came to discipline. They couldn't strike us but they still carried thick yardstick rulers, sometimes told students they'd whack them if they could, and slapped the ruler on their desk for emphasis. They also handed out punishments like write-100-times, stand in the corner, and so forth. This left me with absolutely no desire to wear nun's or monastic habits, but I can see where some might take that route.

I do particularly like box pleats, and I sometimes wonder if that relates back to girls' grade school or cheerleading uniforms. There must be some connection for some people, though; otherwise you wouldn't see schoolgirl outfits sold as fetish or seduction items.

(BTW, in case any moralists come along, I have absolutely no prurient interest in actual schoolgirls. I just like box pleats.)
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
User avatar
knickerless
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:59 am
Location: england

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by knickerless »

It used to be the case that supervisors and manageresses used to have to wear a skirt as part of their uniform and their subordinates quite often wore trousers.
User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Caultron »

knickerless wrote:It used to be the case that supervisors and manageresses used to have to wear a skirt as part of their uniform and their subordinates quite often wore trousers.
Where was this, and was it the dress code for everyone or only women?
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by crfriend »

Caultron wrote:
knickerless wrote:It used to be the case that supervisors and manageresses used to have to wear a skirt as part of their uniform and their subordinates quite often wore trousers.
Where was this, and was it the dress code for everyone or only women?
A bald-faced guess on my part would have been some form of "low-end" setting (e.g. "fast food", &c) and the rule would have been for women only as "only women wear skirts" and it's an easy way to tell Management from the drones.

Once one got into conventional professions, at least in days gone by, women in general would have been expected to wear skirts (with all the other things required thereof). This turned out to be one of the sticking points of basic feminism and equality as a woman's professional wardrobe could cost quite a bit more than her male counterparts' and typically had components that were essentially expendable (e.g. legwear) that the guys didn't -- all the while with her making, perhaps, 70 cents on the dollar for the same job done. I can see why women took to trousers as fast as they could when the "rules" loosened up.

So, yes, in certain situations skirts -- on women -- were markers of power and position, but for the most part they weren't.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Caultron »

It's completely possible that the skirts vs. pants issue in this situation is like white-collar vs. blue or suit vs. coveralls. Management wears clothing that's clearly unsuitable for doing the actual work, and probably more expensive as well. It's one more way that management differentiates itself from labor.

But all that's conjecture. I'm still curious what knickerless has to say about the actual situation.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
User avatar
skirtyscot
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3448
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:44 pm
Location: West Kilbride, Ayrshire, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by skirtyscot »

I'd say we have identified some exceptions from the rule here. Generally, trousers = power. We've all heard the phrase "I know who wears the trousers in that marriage".
Keep on skirting,

Alastair
User avatar
knickerless
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:59 am
Location: england

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by knickerless »

The dress code mentioned was just for the women - a good example would do-it-yourself shops such as Homebase, another example would be the cheap end of the food business - like Macdonalds.
User avatar
Caultron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:12 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by Caultron »

It'd be interesting to know what the dress code was for male managers -- like, what dress for men was considered equivalent to a skirt or dress for a woman.

Also, I wonder if, in the days of forced skirts for female managers, female workers were forced to wear pants.

I suppose it's all just past history now, except to know where we came from and what the process for change might be.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

caultron
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14432
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Skirts = Power ?

Post by crfriend »

Caultron wrote:It'd be interesting to know what the dress code was for male managers -- like, what dress for men was considered equivalent to a skirt or dress for a woman.
This would vary with the workplace. In very low-end places, the "badge" of the male manager would be (and still is) a dress shirt and a tie; as one ascends the hierarchy one runs into suits (empty or not) and thence into the price differences between suits (at that level, almost always empty).
Also, I wonder if, in the days of forced skirts for female managers, female workers were forced to wear pants.
Again, this comes down to the contextual setting. In lowbrow places like "fast food" or retail the uniform could be trousers or, less commonly, skirts for women workers. In corporate settings, it would be skirts or dresses for almost all women with rank delineated by the cost of the garb involved in the same manner it was for men. (The receptionist tried to look as good as she could on her salary, the same way the male clerk would; the "executives" would be wearing $500 - $1000 suits as status symbols.)
I suppose it's all just past history now, except to know where we came from and what the process for change might be.
What I call the "Great Dumbing Down" of workplace attire really got rolling in the 1990s, first with "casual Fridays", then with "business casual", and it's been in free-fall since with the exception of places that enforce a uniform of sorts (and even then must be careful with them). For the most part, everything else seems to have gone to the dogs.

Ultimately, the selection of trousers or skirts (where there's an option) comes down to practical need. For instance, I'm perfectly happy with skirts for my computer administration job even if it does mean I'm occasionally pulling cables or up on short ladders. However, even given the option, I most probably would not have worn skirts when I was a Field Engineer doing computer repair as sometimes that involved high-speed or very dirty machinery and working in environments that would have been very uncomfortable in a skirt (think refigerated raised-floor computer rooms where the source of chilled air is under the floor coming up through perforations in the floor *). In fact, if my company decides at some point to build a proper computer room I may wind up going back to trousers at work for just that reason.

* The one time I went out to our co-location facility (which has a raised-floor) in a skirt was the last time I did so. It was one very cold morning with almost as much attention paid to keeping the skirt from lifting in the airflow as what I was actually there to do.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Post Reply