The rate at which this moves

[Pythos]

After reading the latest anti fem thread that has recently been posted, I felt I needed to try to discuss something else that was mentioned in that thread.

I understand the merits of taking our time and limiting what styles we adopt. I don't think the world let alone the US is ready for men wearing puffy and frilly floral skirts. I don't really think society is ready for men wearing most forms of dresses. Men in high heels? Perhaps not ready.

However. I must ask this. What rate are we going toward full fashion choice for men, much like what women have?

What I see and think is that at the rate things are going, I will have lived a long full life, had a nice retirement, and have been dead and buried before men get the freedom of fashion to the level of wearing kilts as normal attire. In other words I think we are going about the speed of a glacier.

I am not sure about others here but I for one like to wear skirts. I like the feeling of putting on a pair of tights or hose, with a skirt, and wearing it out of the house when going out with friends. I like the idea of women scoping out my legs (they do it, just like men when presented with the opportunity) , and butt when covered in a tight skirt. Problem is, most people hang on to way out dated and sexist rules of fashion that limit what men can wear. But I do know there are women that can and do admire the male form when skirted, they are out there, unfortunately they are shy to admit it. A product of our one sided gender expression society.

When we say a woman in pants is expressing her masculine side, we are being just as sexist as when a guy in a skirt is said to be being feminine. Both are screwed up ways of thinking. Pants do not make a man, skirts do not make a woman. You know what makes a man a man? One thing, his penis. What makes a woman a woman are her breasts and the components of her that make up the womb. The rest are induced by society. That is my firm belief. But this is always up to discussion.

When I wear my skirts I do not intend to look like a woman. If that was my goal I would put on a bra and false breasts, and pad my hips, and wear a wig. This would be cross dressing. If a man chooses to wear a tight or short skirt, with tights or hose, along with "normal" male attire, he is not cross dressing any more than a woman wearing a t-shirt and jeans. Just one is more refined in appearance.

I really think that we all should consider that the rate we are going is crummy at best. I personally would like to enjoy wearing skirts as part of a daily attire before I am too old to do so. Time marches on, and time is not on any of our sides when it comes to aging.

[crfriend]

[...]However. I must ask this. What rate are we going toward full fashion choice for men, much like what women have?

What I see and think is that at the rate things are going, I will have lived a long full life, had a nice retirement, and have been dead and buried before men get the freedom of fashion to the level of wearing kilts as normal attire. In other words I think we are going about the speed of a glacier. [...]

I think that assesment is on the harsh side. Those of us here have found that we can wear skirted garments in our daily social lives without much recrimination, if any, and while most decide to leave their alternate attire at home during work hours, that doesn't necessarily mean we're repressed. What do you suppose might have happened to any one of us "out and about" just ten short years ago in 1998? Or twenty years ago in 1988? I suspect in most places the public response would have been fast, furious, and highly negative. So, progress has been made, if somewhat glacially.

One cannot change a society overnight; there's just too much inertia. So it takes time. It took a couple of hundred years for the "peacock male" of the middle ages to be replaced by the grey man of today; if we're to climb out of that, we can likely expect it to take a long time, if not a similar span. If it happens -- and there's no guarantee it will -- one can surmise it'll take less than a hundred years as things seem to "move faster" in today's world (although that may be me "compressing time" as I age). But change has occurred -- and in our case (men who wear skirted garments) the change has been for the positive.

I really think that we all should consider that the rate we are going is crummy at best. I personally would like to enjoy wearing skirts as part of a daily attire before I am too old to do so. Time marches on, and time is not on any of our sides when it comes to aging.

It's crummy only if you "want it all and want it now"; accept that you can at least nowadays usually get away with wearing what you want without constantly worrying about getting harrassed or worse.

[Mipi]

Usually the things move faster after they really start moving.

[ChrisM]

I want it all and I want it now.

I really wish I lived in a society where it would be OK (not unusual, not tolerated, not attention-getting) for me to wear skirts, hose, heels, sheer shirts, and lace camisoles visible underneath.

Will I get my wish? No - I will be long gone.

How hard am I willing to fight for it? How far am I willing to push the barriers? Pretty far, but I am conscious of my need not to alienate clients, so I defer to them. I don't want them to be embarrassed to be seen near me, and they are a bunch of conservative old men who would be. Just yesterday my US Coast Guard client said "come to the meeting, but wear trousers. I can handle the earring and the shoes, but not the skirt." He gets major kudos in my book for being honest.

So what am I saying? "Pythos I agree with you."

Chris

[Since1982]

have been dead and buried before men get the freedom of fashion to the level of wearing kilts as normal attire.

Men have that right now if they wish to do it. No one anywhere in the United States at least is bothered in any kind of untoward way for wearing a kilt. It's actually a reverse reaction. If anything, perhaps kilt wearers might prefer being more anonymous than being noticed and complimented on their kilts or skirts. It's been at least three months since anyone has said anything about my skirts that wasn't a complete compliment. That reaction was the old saw "Are you Scottish?" My response was predictable, "Does this look like a kilt?, but yes, I'm partly Scottish and this is a skirt, not a kilt." "Ohhh, Okkk....thank you," and he wandered away. That's ONE backwards thinking person out of probably 100 people in the last year that have complimented me on my skirts.

Carl, take it easy on Pythos, he's still young and filled with juice and needs challenges. I was once much the same. Age heals all wounds, or is it Age wounds all heels? I'm sneaking up on the 1st of the month....I become 67 arghhhhhhh...

[Milfmog]

Pythos,

It would be easy for me to extol the virtue of patience and suggest that you need to allow things to happen at a sustainable pace. It might even be a reasonable reply, however you don't want to read that and I don't want to lecture you. I also find other peoples narrow perspective frustrating but there is no value in giving myself ulcers over it..

What I will say is that while the pace for society as a whole is mind numbingly slow, individuals here have made far faster progress. I have moved from wearing a sarong at home to kilts and skirts pretty much anytime I want to outside working hours. (The work exclusion has to remain for a while as the company is going through a bad patch, the CEO (my immediate boss) "resigned" a couple of days ago (coincidentally on the very day the CEO of the parent company came to visit... ) and now is definitely not the time to get labelled as awkward.) My personal progress in this is based entirely on increasing self-confidence due to experience and the moral support of everyone here. Others have gone further than I have and in less time, good for them. You are one of those who wants to wear a far wider range of clothing that I'd allow myself, even if my body shape was suitable and I admire you for your openness and imagination. Don't give up on us just because things seem slow.

Progress for society is really just an average of the progress made by individuals within society. Each time someone makes personal progress and simply wears the clothes of their choice they impact in a tiny way on the average state of society. Progress is being made and we can all do our bit to help it along simply by dressing as we choose.

So, chin up, look the world in the eye and say to yourself "Who cares what 'they' think? I'm comfortable and happy".

Keep smiling and have fun,


Ian.

[Big and Bashful]

Pythos,
have to agree with your point of view, I don't see any real change anytime soon. I suppose all is not lost as far as plain unbifurcated clothes because we could always move to a country where sarongs or whatever are the norm, but that still isn't what you want is it? Just keep plugging away at the boundaries is all we can do. For me it is my own personal boundaries holding me back, the ridiculous need to appear 'normal', whatever that means. Also where I work I do not want to become known as an eccentric of any sort, it is career limiting.

[Peter v]

General progress if there is such a thing, ( local situations can vary extremely) is moving, but seemingly at a snail's pace.
That does not mean that we, each individually cannot do our own thing. It may however influence people in their outlook on men doing what we do. But then again, it is all about who you meet, where they are, and in what relationship they stand to you.

Living and working in a environment of dumb people would possibly make wearing skirts difficult, as living and working amongst more intelligent people, who are understanding may be like heaven. Both being totally unique situations, irregardless of how the rest of the state, country sees men in skirts. And it always comes down to the way every person individually looks at what you are doing, whether it is a homeless bumb or a stinking rich college graduate, it is their outlook that determines their acceptance, their reaction that in turn makes you feel accepted, safe, normal or somewhat anxious.

It has been proven over and over again that most often men can go skirted without much if any problem. But you only have to meet one person who lets you know he/she is in disagreement. That is however something totally separated from statistic talk about "what the general thought from the public is at the moment about men in skirts".

And the only way to accelerate any movement in our favour is for us all to get out there and wear whatever skirted outfit we wish, and be part of society.

[Kris]

What I see and think is that at the rate things are going, I will have lived a long full life, had a nice retirement, and have been dead and buried before men get the freedom of fashion to the level of wearing kilts as normal attire. In other words I think we are going about the speed of a glacier.

we could always move to a country where sarongs or whatever are the norm

Pythos,
Most people seem to be trying to cheer you up, so let me try this:
You're quite right. In fact, your children and grandchildren will probably also be underground before that time comes.
But look on the bright side.
By then people won't know the meaning of the phrase "the speed of a glacier". All the glaciers will be long melted.
And Big and Bashful, your descendants won't have to "move to a country where sarongs or whatever are the norm".
The standard attire for men in most countries will be sarongs and tunics or perhaps long flowing robes (think "Lawrence of Arabia") for comfort and protection in a climate with hot dry dust-laden winds and the sun beating down unmercifully. That is of course when they aren't taking shelter from even stronger hurricane winds and rain. The residents of Florida will be relieved to know they won't have to worry about that. There will be no residents of Florida, it being mostly submerged by rising sea levels from the melted polar ice caps and Greenland.
I could add some smilies to indicate it's all just a joke, but who knows, it might be a valid prediction.

Kris

[Since1982]

Listening to all these "nay-sayers" perhaps we all ought to jump out the nearest window right after burning all our Unbifurcated garments. There IS another choice tho, we could all do what I do, I may be old and overly chubby, but I get out there skirted every day in the world. When I first started skirting where I live I was ostrasized. THEY got over it, I'm completely accepted now in my town, and anywhere I go to. To ME, the world DOES accept men in skirts completely. I think the friction and possible problems associated with skirt wearing is mostly in OUR heads, not the public consciousness. I think the public is mostly ready for nearly anything in new dressing avenues. The public sure does accept readily skirts and other unbifurcated garments on celebrities. In fact, when a celebrity is published wearing a kilt or sarong or other MUG, other people start looking for similar clothes to try out on themselves. This is a healthy outlook on sartorial choice making. My advice to anyone reading this is, Stop worrying about what others will say or think, it's probably all in your mind, I know it was all in my mind until I came out of the so called "closet" of worry. This is probably the only place I'm completely in agreement with Peter v. He and I have jumped out the window and are wearing what we want, and are NEVER going back to trousers until some undertaker goes against our wishes and puts us in them after the fact.

[Sasquatch]

I'll raise again questions that I have raised before. Would we be as interested in wearing what we do if it was commonplace for men to do so, or would the "edge" be dulled? Would we consider skirts to be as mundane as trousers? Would we be looking for the next edgy thing, looking to keep pushing at perceived boundaries? For my part, I think that might be the case, at least to some extent. I don't necessarily want every man taking up my special eccentricity. It would be nice to have a few others around so I wouldn't feel so alone, but too many others would ruin the "uniqueness" of the experience.

Sasq

[Pythos]

Actually Sasq, I highly disagree with your premise. I do not wear skirts, or the stuff I do just to be different, though I do dislike the jeans fad. I would like more than a few other men (who hide), to wear skirts in my area. I want it to be acceptable for us to wear what we want, when we want, where we want. I wold not wear skirts, or leggings if I did not like it, or found it uncomfortable. I find jeans uncomfortable, as I do most pants.

Unfortunately the uniqueness is what makes it taboo. I don't like it being taboo, and I would hazard to guess no one else here likes it being taboo.

[Gus]

Would we be looking for the next edgy thing, looking to keep pushing at perceived boundaries? For my part, I think that might be the case, at least to some extent.

Sasq, I have to agree with you a little bit. But the problem is where I live it is still too edgy. I would like the edges softened a bit.

Overall I do agree with Pythos that there is a general taboo which makes life difficult. It's fine if you are ostracized by complete strangers, but I it takes a long time to get family members and friends convinced that what I am doing is completely acceptable. These are the people who matter to me.

It's odd that a complete stranger or even a mild acquaintance will accept my eccentricities without difficulty, my family won't.

[SportSkirt]

I agree with since1982 on this.
You can go at your own rate. I am fortunate to live in a society that doesn't seem to mind my kilt/skirt wearing in general. I have been wearing a kilt to work each day for the last couple of months. No one seems to care one way or the other. I notice the occasional raised eyebrow and that's about it. On Friday it was Jeans for Genes day so I found my jeans in the back of the closet and wore them to work. When I picked up my tea and muffins for breakfast (very british!) the girl that served me commented on my lack of kilt. She has seen me in a kilt every day for the last few weeks and accepted the kilt without comment.

I think you need to take the little steps you can whenever you can. Bit by bit you will gain acceptance, and make it easier for others that follow.

It's probably worth mentioning that I still change into shirt and trousers for work (bucking the trend in an investment bank would not be a good career move at the moment) and I only wear a sarong at home as the family aren't ready yet.

I'm sure i'll get the family on my side at some point in time. Not sure about the bank, but it's a case of fighting the battles you can win.

[Skirt Chaser]

Would we be as interested in wearing what we do if it was commonplace for men to do so, or would the "edge" be dulled?

You have hit on my interest, Sasq. While I like the look of guys in skirts the larger part of my fascination is from them pushing boundaries. When my husband revealed early on in our budding relationship that he liked to wear skirts it turned a nice but rather bland guy into something more attractive to my eyes and tastes. The skirt wearing really did make the difference toward sticking around to learn more of his great but less obvious traits over time.

Part of the cafe's appeal is that we have men here from the whole range of why skirts are for them. Not everyone is a thrill seeker and some would love their comfort garment of choice to be unremarkably mundane. For you though Sasquatch, even when the day comes where you can't get noticed for merely being in a skirt or kilt there will always be ways to up the ante and stand out. While not suitable for every occasion, neon green (such as this unsubtle example-http://eatliver.com/i.php?n=3294) will always stand out.