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crfriend
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Re: in my opinion...

Post by crfriend »

SkirtedViking wrote:[... S]ince women wear also the alredy mentioned items(men's t-shirts,etc.) and it is ok,men must have the same options.
Personally, and this is my opinion, T-shirts do not count because they're not "constructed" garments the way that mens' shirts and womens' blouses are (although mens' blouses do exist in limited contexts). T-shirts are perhaps the ultimate in "unisex" garb; I also take them to be synonymous with grunge (viz. medical "scrubs").

Properly done, a man's shirt should follow the contours of his torso. Unfortunately, the last time I actually witnessed such a garment that wasn't a custom job was in the very early 1980s; nowadays, the only fare that your average wage-slave can find fit like tents. Womens' tops (be they blouses or shirts -- the main difference is whether they have "tails" or not) are cut to follow the line of the female torso -- quite a different thing than that of the male -- and, hence, are not terribly well suited for male wear. On the second topic, I've "been there and tried that" with a positively splendid waistcoat of my wife's that she was willing to transfer to me as it doesn't fit her any longer. I didn't much worry about the garment buttoning "the wrong way" (being mostly ambidextrous it wasn't a concern); it was that there was one heck of a lot of "free space" "up top" that I could not fill and have look good. That put the kibosh on that idea, but I may still make another run at the garment if (1) she's willing and (2) I can find a professional who can do the proper "mod" on the first try (and anybody that says that purple brocade cannot look "masculine" is off his rocker).
SkirtedViking wrote:Some women's tops do not require the parts that you imply as breast and so on,just such tops are different and more variable.
Once one gets beyond unisex cuts (T-shirts) and stretchy fabrics (sweaters -- if not "pre-stretched") the similarities end really quickly -- that's one of the things that tends to bedevil the concept of a man's dress; what does a man do with the vast flat expanse that makes up most blokes' chest area? In my mind at least, something should at least fit the body that's wearing it, and, face it, guys just aren't terribly interesting to look at (in a topological sense) between the neck and the waist.
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SkirtedViking
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well

Post by SkirtedViking »

...hate to argue but a men's loose t-shirt is not an unisex garment,just women have turned it into that one.In fact in many stores the mentioned loose t-shirts are labelled as men's.Women have their t-shirts,they just more tight-fitting than men's.And still many women wear men's.Should i mention that there are differences in the neckline between so called men's and women's t-shirts.But it is useless to continue because we get to the point that a woman is accepted in anything and maybe there must be a forum for guys in alternative tops :) where some of them shall condemn if a guy mixes the top with a skirt and not with something so called masculine.I like myself in tops that do not require breasts,I work out so I look good in my humble opinion and I am not androgynous,have beard,muscles.
a man's t-shirt-http://www.chickenranchrecords.com/images/CNT-001.jpg
many women wear that 1st type
women's one-http://www.argoth.co.uk/acatalog/spitr137108.jpg
we should wear also whatever fits us best
There is nothing worse than double standard!
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Re: in my opinion...

Post by Emerald Witch »

crfriend wrote: face it, guys just aren't terribly interesting to look at (in a topological sense) between the neck and the waist.
(sigh) "Interesting to look at" is sooooooo a matter of opinion! Me, I find the very flatness of men's chests to be fascinating.

Of course, men's chests are not all flat, any more than their stomachs are. People come in an amazing variety of shapes and contours, and all need their own personal tailoring. Just... some need more tailoring than others. :)
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crfriend
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Re: in my opinion...

Post by crfriend »

Emerald Witch wrote:
crfriend wrote: face it, guys just aren't terribly interesting to look at (in a topological sense) between the neck and the waist.
(sigh) "Interesting to look at" is sooooooo a matter of opinion! Me, I find the very flatness of men's chests to be fascinating.
Well, I have to admit that that in itself is rather interesting. So, the female of the species finds the chest of the male of the species as fascinating as the other way 'round! Personally, I'd never had thought of that.

So -- what, in your mind, would make for an elegant top-half to a male "dress"? (I'm not trying to "put you on the spot", but it seems that there's something that might be worked here for both sides' benefit.)
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Re: in my opinion...

Post by AMM »

crfriend wrote:
Emerald Witch wrote:
crfriend wrote: face it, guys just aren't terribly interesting to look at (in a topological sense) between the neck and the waist.
(sigh) "Interesting to look at" is sooooooo a matter of opinion! Me, I find the very flatness of men's chests to be fascinating.
So -- what, in your mind, would make for an elegant top-half to a male "dress"? ...
Dresses designed for pre-pubescent girls are designed for flat chests and do not bulge at the breasts. While they don't advertise "sexually mature woman," they can still look quite attractive. Thus, one approach is to look for a little-girl's dress top half that you like and just adjust the proportions.

Another approach is to take a man's shirt style that you like and hang a skirt onto it. I rather like the "poet's shirt" style -- loose shirt with a pronounced "yoke", plus a belt or wide waistband -- so as to suggest "GI Joe" proportions.

One thing that men would need to consider that isn't usually dealt with with "little girl" clothing is the "spare tire" that many of us develop[*]. I find that most women's dresses tend to really emphasize my midsection in a way I don't like (as well as being too tight in the shoulders -- I'm told this is a perennial problem for men who wear women's tops.) I once made a knee-length dress for myself, where I created a pattern for the "bodice" (what would you call it for a man?) by cutting and taping brown paper until it more or less fit. It looked better than any woman's dress on me, although it still wasn't as flattering as I would have liked. I did look a little like a man in a little-girl dress, but I think that's inevitable.

-- AMM

[*] I suspect that fat or chubby little girls must have some of the same problems. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there aren't any decent lines of clothing for chubby girls. I guess they're not supposed to exist, so if they refuse to conveniently cease to exist, they're supposed to wear burqas, like women over size 10. :x
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Post by Big and Bashful »

How about the top half being based on a "ghillie shirt"? the sort of semi formal lace-up collar on a looseish short sleeve shirt type thing.
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Re: in my opinion...

Post by Emerald Witch »

crfriend wrote:
Emerald Witch wrote:(sigh) "Interesting to look at" is sooooooo a matter of opinion! Me, I find the very flatness of men's chests to be fascinating.
Well, I have to admit that that in itself is rather interesting. So, the female of the species finds the chest of the male of the species as fascinating as the other way 'round! Personally, I'd never had thought of that.
Can't imagine why not. Don't you see women admiring men? What do you think we're talking about? Well, different things, obviously... Just as men find different things admirable about women, I suppose, and each woman may find a particular feature to be her personal favorite...

Just as there are "leg men" and "breast men" etc, and it's always understood that of course you need to like her for who she is... after you've gotten a good chance to be attracted to her by her looks, yeah?

Me, for example, I just cannot resist a man with a deep voice, broad shoulders, and a good haircut. What a "good" haircut is, is entirely up to the design of the man's particular face and hair texture, but you know it when you see it!

Oh, and legs... I must admit I've got a thing for leg muscles... (goodness, gracious, me!)

Besides just being well-groomed in general, of course.

But when it comes to "what makes an elegant top-half to a male dress" there are just so many variables we've got to nail down first! Are we talking about "elegant" as in "what I want him to wear on a fancy dress evening out" or "what I just love to see him wearing around"? Are we really talking about a dress, or did you just mean clothing?

Actually, I'm no designer. And I would be foolish to tell anyone what to wear. Everyone is so individual! Everyone has their own personal style. Fabio may look fine in a half-open pirate shirt (to those who like that sort of thing -- bleah!) but how silly would he look wearing that to the grocery store to buy diapers?

And that's my point. MY personal hero wouldn't be the fantasy man. He'd be the dude who would be there at 3am when the baby was screaming and we needed medicine. And I would think he was sexy as hell in his lumberjack shirt, if that's what he loved to wear. (Comfy for baby to cuddle on, too!) And if he wanted to change into something with sheer organza sleeves and a mandarin collar and a satin bow to take me out to dinner for our anniversary -- that would be fine with me, too!

If you can be anything you want to be in the whole wide world -- be yourself.
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JeffB1959
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AMM's Outfit Idea....

Post by JeffB1959 »

AMM wrote:Another approach is to take a man's shirt style that you like and hang a skirt onto it. I rather like the "poet's shirt" style -- loose shirt with a pronounced "yoke", plus a belt or wide waistband.
AMM: Was this what you had in mind? When I read what you wrote, I was greatly inspired and set about visualizing what you suggested for everyone here to see. Hopefully I did your idea justice.

This outfit consists of a men's dress shirt in gray, paired with a black, knee length knit skirt (bought at Goodwill several months ago) with a wide waistband. As for the hose and heels, I figured those items would work best with this outfit, emphazing the overall look much better than bare legs and men's shoes which, in my mind, just wouldn't have looked right. However, others may disagree. Admittedly, I considered wearing the long skirt I've already displayed in this post, but I felt like showing off my legs which I think look damn good. :wink:

Now, could an outfit like this, with it's obvious 9 to 5 office overtones be worn in public by a male? Who can say for sure, but in just the right environment, I genuinely believe it could be done as what I'm wearing is stylish and contemporary without being extreme. After all, if a male choses to go out in public wearing a skirt, I think he should do his very best to look tasteful, not tacky. Opinions?
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Post by Pythos »

That outfit looks good. The heels might be a tad bit much though, at least for me. I would also have to loosen up the shirt a bit too. Now over time when skirts do become acceptable for men, this outfit would do just fine, but for now it may just be a tad a head of its time.
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Post by Emerald Witch »

Oh, Jeff! BRAVO!!!

Would it be out of line for me to suggest perhaps a bit of jewelery or a belt? or is that something you do not prefer?

You do have nice legs, and lovely broad shoulders, which the open points of the collar emphasizes.

Me, I'm a bit into glam. Ignore me if this isn't your style.

I just look at that lovely skirt and trim waistline and envision one of those belts with an extra loop of dangling chain in front. You've got the figure to pull it off. Not all of us can afford to call attention there.

And I would really like to see what sort of jacket you might throw over the top of this. I personally melt for a man in a strong-shouldered jacket, and that pocket with the little handkerchief sticking out... You could go black for serious, pinstripe (obviously), or you could go the other way and add another splash of color, perhaps with a long vest. Maybe in something completely unexpected like a really brightly patterned print, with just a touch of the purple and black in it to tie it together. I'm seeing orange in there somewhere to really kick it up!

With your skin tone, you can afford to get WILD with color, man!

Then again, the whole ensemble could be completely reworked if the skirt were denim. Same length, same cut, totally different attitude. You'd get rid of the 9-to-5 attitude fast. Perhaps a concho belt, then, and a shirt with those silver tips on the collar. Some kickin' boots -- Or would that be just TOO cowboy?

Golly. No wonder I never liked to play with Barbie! She looked NOTHING like you! And they just didn't make skirts to fit Ken...

(was that rude? forgive me if it was! ducking head)

Okay, this is why I tried not to get started. I play Human Dolls with people! But it's only meant as suggestions. Take what inspires, ignore the rest. As always. I am but your humble servant. ;)
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Post by JeffB1959 »

Pythos: Ahead of my time? Well, that's certainly an interesting viewpoint. Perhaps that's the case, still, that sort of classy, stylish look I displayed in that outfit shoud be able to fit in well anywhere regardless of which gender wears it. Like I said, if a man is going to be seen in public in a skirt, then he'd better look damn good!

Emerald Witch: Many thanks for the compliments, and the suggestions. Jewelry and/or a belt, hmm, even though I'm something of a minimalist, I think that could be made to work. I'll keep that in mind. As for that trim waistline, it took a lot of work to get there, working off nearly 40 pounds over the past six months to get down to a slim 203 pounds as of this morning. I'm pleased that my figure looks good in a skirt. I wouldn't have posted such a pic if I didn't. I feel I have to look my best or just plain not bother. I've always been proud of my legs which I've never needed to shave. I have a couple of shorter knit skirts which I bought from Goodwill that really make my legs stand out. Would you like to see me in one, or is that a silly question? Heh! Adding a jacket or blazer is intriguing, yeah, that could be made to work as well. Once again, thanks for the ideas, EW!
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Re: AMM's Outfit Idea....

Post by AMM »

JeffB1959 wrote:
AMM wrote:Another approach is to take a man's shirt style that you like and hang a skirt onto it. I rather like the "poet's shirt" style -- loose shirt with a pronounced "yoke", plus a belt or wide waistband.
AMM: Was this what you had in mind? [look back to Jeff's message to see the pictur]
Well.... -- not exactly. :roll:

Not that I don't find your ensemble interesting, but it wasn't what I had in mind.
1. I was thinking of something more like a dress, actually. Maybe a "peasant" dress or something.

2. I happen to not like tight skirts or high heels, for pretty much the same reason: I like to be able to move freely. I also happen to think that they attract too much attention to my "spare tire." YMMV.

-- AMM
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Post by Emerald Witch »

JeffB1959 wrote:... if a man is going to be seen in public in a skirt, then he'd better look damn good!
Well, you do look good. Very good. Classy.

That's the thing. Wearing a skirt isn't just a statement in itself. Different skirts say different things, and the language of skirts is complex. A denim miniskirt may look "good", even "damn good" on a particular man, but will always send a different message than a knee-length black pencil skirt, which will always send a different message than a floor-length peasant skirt.

Sometimes the posts on this board make me wonder if the fellas around here have actually given any real thought to these fashion messages. Not that they would ever MEAN to send mixed messages, but maybe they just haven't spent their whole lives chatting about these codes the way women always have.

You seem to get the codes, Jeff. Maybe you could translate for some of the others who might be missing a beat here and there.

I can see you are being quite intentional with the message you are sending out. You want people to perceive you as well-educated, professional, respectable, middle to upper-middle class. Desk job, like a teacher, an accountant, or an architect. Not a laborer. Whatever your background might have been, you are not living on the streets now. You have dignity, and will maintain that as a high priority.

... I'm something of a minimalist
Ah. Well, that's okay. Lots of men don't like much jewelery or glitz. It's just something I like. Heck, lots of women don't go in for it either. Double-heck! Even *I* didn't start wearing jewelery or makeup until recently. Didn't even get my ears pierced until last September.

But then, you've got more of an excuse for it than I have, don't you? You're a guy. Guys aren't EXPECTED to be beautiful and glamorous.

(Oooooooooooooooooo... she's gonna get in trouble for that one!!!)

All I mean is that you can choose your own style any way you want to. Go glam if it's your thing and you've got the balls to take the social hits for bucking the system, or go minimalist if THAT'S your thing, and be grateful that you don't HAVE to buck the system in that particular area.

(Man, I know I'm skating on thin ice. Hope it isn't cracking under me!)
... As for that trim waistline, it took a lot of work to get there, working off nearly 40 pounds over the past six months to get down to a slim 203 pounds as of this morning.
WOW!!! MEGA-congratulations, man! That is awesome, and took a lot of work, I know!

You deserve all the sly looks your trim form will be receiving! ;)
Once again, thanks for the ideas, EW!
Always welcome. But please, between friends -- I much prefer Em (or pretty much any other derivative) instead of EW! "Ew" is what I say when something is yucky. Of course, you can still call me that if you are ever ticked off at me... :roll:
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JeffB1959
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Post by JeffB1959 »

AMM: My bad for not understanding what you meant in your post. In other words: D-UH!!
2. I happen to not like tight skirts or high heels, for pretty much the same reason: I like to be able to move freely. I also happen to think that they attract too much attention to my "spare tire."
Well, it was for that very reason I worked like a beast to get rid of my spare tire as I like looking slim and trim. As for the skirt I sported in that pic, it isn't at all tight despite it's appearance as it stretches and moves quite nicely when I walk. And, for whatever it's worth, I can also move just as freely in heels, but then, I've had lots of practice at that.

Emerald Witch: Thanks for the kind words. I just do the best I can with what I happen to have. In my attempt to dechipher the "language of skirts" as you called it, I tend to break things down this way:

denim=casual, pencil or knit=dressy

Perhaps I'm wrong in that regard as I'm sure a denim skirt can be made to look dressy while a knit skirt can be casual, it all depends on what's paired with it and how it's worn. In the end, it all depends on the person and how he chooses to wear what he has.
Sometimes the posts on this board make me wonder if the fellas around here have actually given any real thought to these fashion messages. Not that they would ever MEAN to send mixed messages, but maybe they just haven't spent their whole lives chatting about these codes the way women always have.

You seem to get the codes, Jeff. Maybe you could translate for some of the others who might be missing a beat here and there.
Well, if I seem to get the "codes", that's because I used to be a crossdresser, so I took my fashion cues from what women wear and adapted what I saw to form my own personal style which, for me was 9 to 5 business office classy as I was a nut for skirted suits and similar outfits, and it's that very sort of style I displayed in the pics I've put up, and is the sort of image I like to project. But, there's nothing wrong with casual looks, I like that too. And, yeah, I do have an office job. HA! This is just my personal philosophy, but I strongly believe that image is very important and goes a long way towards establishing one's own comfort level and self-confidence, if you look your best, you'll feel your best, regardless of if you're in trousers or a skirt.

Once again, thanks for the compliments....Em! :D
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Post by sapphire »

Hi Jeff,
A belated welcome to you!

It's nice to see the ensembles that you have put together. I especially like the second ensemble with the denim skirt. Very nice - very cohesive, pulled together.

From what you've shown us, you definitely have your own sense of style and one that also shows a great physique.

I'd like to make a couple of suggestions regarding outfits one and three, if you wouldn't mind.

Outfit 3 is very professional. I'd use a lower heeled plain pump for an "everyday" outfit. If you were to add a scarf, or jewelry, jacket and/or vest, then I'd wear the higher heels.

To me, outfit one chas a combination of hard and soft elements that are out of balance. To balance it out, I would either remove the "hard" element or add another "hard" element. The "hard" element is the stilletto boots.

I would either pair this outfit with boots with a chunkier heel, more rounded toe in a nice soft leather. The other alternative I'd choose is to add something llike a chain belt.

Hope this isn't offensive to you, just trying to help.

Diana
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