New Kid In Town

[SkirtedViking]

In my country women wear masculine, as you say, tops and everything else at the same time,I've been to other countries in Europe and there it is like that also.Yes many of them mix masculine and feminine things but also many times they do not and wear just masculine stuff and that's not an issue for anyone,especially men's t-shirts and jackets. What I say is that we should be able to do the same,but if you prefer the mixed look I have no problem with that,all people should be able to look according to their own views of fashion,I just expressed my opinion that since women wear all masculine items we can do that too!The advantage is the wider choice of clothes and the equality itself.Best regards!

[crfriend]

I've toyed with the idea of wearing a slip under the skirt if I ever go out in same, but I haven't made up my mind on that score.

Slips are actually more of a functional garment than anything else, even though they do run from the decidedly plain to the outright fancy. You'll find them useful for several things: they allow the wearing of fabrics that would otherwise be unseemly to wear because of tranmissiveness (diffuse transparency), they allow the skirt to move freely if one is wearing legwear (which can cause quite a bit of friction, depending on the fabric the skirt is made from), and they provide another layer of warmth in the winter.

There doesn't seem to be a consensus here, but personally I don't think they should be seen (at least I go to some lengths to make sure I don't show one off if I'm wearing one).

[sapphire]

Well, that's where slips slide into petticoat territory. Some ensembles require that a bit of lace peek out from under the skit.
DIana

[AMM]

There doesn't seem to be a consensus here, but personally I don't think [slips] should be seen (at least I go to some lengths to make sure I don't show one off if I'm wearing one).

The reason there is no consensus is that the real answer is "it depends."

Some slips are specifically intended to show below a skirt or dress. In fact, there are skirts which have a bit of trim on the bottom that is supposed to look like the hem of a slip or petticoat peeping out from under the skirt.

Square dance petticoats are intended to show when the wearer twirls, and to be slightly visible even when she doesn't. They also have underwear ("pettipants") whose whole purpose is to give people something modest yet interesting to see when the skirt and petticoat fly up!

Most slips and half-slips aren't intended to be exposed (any more than men's boxers are), though they usually have some lace and/or other decorative elements. I don't know who they're for, aside from the wearer, unless they're for the benefit of the emergency room doctors and nurses.

Some clothing styles, such as "punk", involve exposing things that proper ladies would rather die than have visible to the public, such as slips.

But if you want to have as prim, proper, and conventional an appearance as possible, and armor yourself against any catty remarks, you will keep your slip safely hidden, as well as eschewing any sign of fun or playfulness in your clothing.

Of course, if you're male, and you want to seem proper and conventional, etc., you won't wear skirts at all!

-- AMM

P.S.: I think it's something of a masculine trait to want to come up with absolute rules for questions that don't really admit absolute answers. And if there's one area where there are no unchanging, absolute rules, it's fashion.

[crfriend]

Some slips are specifically intended to show below a skirt or dress. In fact, there are skirts which have a bit of trim on the bottom that is supposed to look like the hem of a slip or petticoat peeping out from under the skirt.

Well, that's where slips slide into petticoat territory. Some ensembles require that a bit of lace peek out from under the skit.

Ouch. I feel like that cartoon character who's always asked, "One lump or two?" in his tea and winds up with lumps on his head from an oversized hammer.

Back to reality.

How often are petticoats (or crinolines) worn in an everyday (i.e. non-costume) context? For the most part, I suspect that they're completely obsolete (which is actually sad when one thinks about it); so, we're back to the costume theme. AMM will have plenty of exposure to the notion from his dancing (Damn, I wish I wasn't such a klutz!), as, actually did I back when I was a wee lad and was lucky enough to partake in some real midwestern small-town festivals in the mid '60s. (I actually knew how to properly square dance many years ago; the old saw of, "use it or lose it" is true; I could not perform a square dance today if my life depended on it.)

Yep, the "froth at the bottom of the skirt" at dances is nice, but it's not "everyday wear" which is what I'm hoping that skirts on blokes may someday become. So, once again, it's the engineer in me that wants to draw hard and fast boundaries on things; I wonder if I need to revisit that....

[AMM]

Some slips are specifically intended to show below a skirt or dress. In fact, there are skirts which have a bit of trim on the bottom that is supposed to look like the hem of a slip or petticoat peeping out from under the skirt.

Well, that's where slips slide into petticoat territory. Some ensembles require that a bit of lace peek out from under the skit.

...
Back to reality.

How often are petticoats (or crinolines) worn in an everyday (i.e. non-costume) context? ...

Yep, the "froth at the bottom of the skirt" at dances is nice, but it's not "everyday wear" ....

Well, I see women on Broadway or in the subway wearing skirts with the bit of faux petticoat on the bottom. Sometimes eyelet trim, sometimes a bit of tulle. Agreed, they're not big pouffy petticoats, but they certainly want to look like they've got something on underneath that shows. And some do, indeed, seem to have a separate outer skirt and longer inner skirt. Since I'm only in NYC during the working day, I'd call it "everyday wear."

I also recall giving my (now ex-) wife a dress and "underdress", which she wore around town. They were shown as a set in the catalog, and the (white) underdress definitely showed under the (print) jumper.

Now, I'm not arguing that men *should* have slips that show. Or that it "should" be everyday wear for men. Or that slips that show aren't often tacky and/or tasteless. My only point was that we can't point to an existing, hard-and-fast rule that says Slips Must Never Show.


Actually, I'd like to go a little further: one of the things that bugs me about men's fashion, as practiced in this country (USA), is that it's tending to get more and more limited and rule-bound. There are fewer and fewer kinds of clothes you can wear without getting comments. You can't even wear a tie any more in most situations without getting ribbed by friends and acquaintances.

And I see some of that here at SkirtCafe. Over and over, I read, "I'd love to wear x, but I'm afraid it would seem unmasculine." And "x should never be worn with y." What's the point of breaking out of one clothing straightjacket if we're just going to sew ourselves another?

The nice thing about women's fashion (yes, there are lots of terrible things about it, too) is that people are forever trying new things. As soon as the fashionistas come up with some ironclad rule, someone else comes along and shows that you can break this rule and still look good. It seems to me that we men should really loosen up and go back to the only rule that really matters: does it look good?

-- AMM

[JeffB1959]

And I see some of that here at SkirtCafe. Over and over, I read, "I'd love to wear x, but I'm afraid it would seem unmasculine."

And isn't that the ultimate oxymoron: men, wearing an article of clothing designated by society at large as being feminine being worried about looking unmasculine? So, what's wrong with that picture? Perhaps that's why I wouldn't have any qualms about wearing a skirt in public with high heels, in my mind, I don't think that would detract one iota from my masculinity which I'm very much secure in. As a member of this board has said, it takes balls for a man to wear a skirt.

[crfriend]

I see women on Broadway or in the subway wearing skirts with the bit of faux petticoat on the bottom. Sometimes eyelet trim, sometimes a bit of tulle. Agreed, they're not big pouffy petticoats, but they certainly want to look like they've got something on underneath that shows. And some do, indeed, seem to have a separate outer skirt and longer inner skirt. Since I'm only in NYC during the working day, I'd call it "everyday wear."

Well, that's what I get for "workin' in the 'burbs". It's casual Friday every day. I do miss the "scenery" from when I was working in downtown Boston; however, I miss the commute vastly less with its 1.5 hours each way.

All your other points are well taken. Thanks.

[Pythos]

Jeff, that outfit looks really good. Very much like what I like to wear (aside from the heels). Keep it up.

[JeffB1959]

Pythos: Many thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it.

Below is a pic of an outfit I put together today, something I think could work well and look tasteful for an outing. The shirt is a men's polo style from K-Mart; the knee length denim skirt I bought today at J.C. Penney; L'eggs off-black pantyhose (my legs look better in hosiery instead of bare); and since I don't think I could bring myself to wear a skirt without women's shoes (remember, I used to be a crossdresser), I opted instead for these loafers with two inch heels from Payless that have a "mannish" look to them and don't stand out like a pair of pointy toed stilettos. Heaven knows I'll probably stand out enough in the skirt. Heh! But seriously, in the right situation and environment, I really think I could make this outfit work in public. I'd appreciate any and all compliments on my appearance, what looks right, what looks wrong, give me the full monty. I can take it. Thanks!

[Emerald Witch]

It seems to me that we men should really loosen up and go back to the only rule that really matters: does it look good?

I'll go you one better -- the only rule you should really follow is: Does it make me feel fabulous when I wear it?

You can never know for SURE if you "look good" to others, and some people just aren't confident enough to say whether they actually look good to themselves. But everyone knows whether or not they FEEL great. Whether that means comfort or making a visual splash, only you can decide, but decide you shall.

Makes emptying your closet of all that junk that doesn't belong there anymore a lot easier too...

P.S. Jeff, I still think you've got plenty of style on your own. No need to worry, dude!

[Bob]

Jeff, you look great!

I'm a fan of men's shirts myself. Women's tops invariably seek to accomodate, hide or show off body parts that as men, we just don't have. That's why I think men look better in men's shirts (in general) --- and it also projects an image of "man-in-skirt" rather than "man-in-drag."

[JeffB1959]

Jeff, you look great!

I'm a fan of men's shirts myself. Women's tops invariably seek to accomodate, hide or show off body parts that as men, we just don't have. That's why I think men look better in men's shirts (in general) --- and it also projects an image of "man-in-skirt" rather than "man-in-drag."

Thanks for the compliment. I also agree that we're better suited to wearing men's shirts which accomodate our physiques better, though in the case of the outfit I sported, I'm almost "man-in-drag" anyway as everything else I wore came from the women's side of the store. Heh! But yeah, this look is "man-in-skirt" to perfection.

Emerald Witch: Many thanks for the kind words. Coming from you, that means a lot!

[Pythos]

That mid lenght denim skirt outfit looks quite good. You are wearing one of my favorite colored hose too. The shoes look good too.

This is the kinda style and look I think would work fine once people get over the whole "men in skirt = pervert" kinda thinking.

How many people do I think think like that? Really not many. But all it takes in a small croud of people who don't think for them selves is on loudmouth. What we need is the loudmouth that says "That outfit is awsome".

[SkirtedViking]

...I do not disagree that you like so called man's shirts etc.All I say is that since women wear also the alredy mentioned items(men's t-shirts,etc.) and it is ok,men must have the same options.Some women's tops do not require the parts that you imply as breast and so on,just such tops are different and more variable.I respect your fashion choice and I do not consider myself as a man-in-a-drag. I could never pass for a woman no matter what i wear,I am too masculine in physical terms and that is fine with me.What I say is that since women are enabled to be not in a drag at least we,the fashion freedom fighters must have no fear and stop using stereotypes for the men as the one if it si not masculine enough I won't wear it,because it implies "man-in-drag".Never seen a woman preventing herself from wearing something because it is masculine,so forget the frame of inequality.Just stood as a guy and behave as such,that's all,no matter what you wear.