Dress Codes Unwritten

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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STEVIE
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Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by STEVIE »

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/sty ... 6cf9&ei=20

Personally, who cares what passes as De Rigeur for the Cheltenham Set because I don't.
However, this raised a question in my mind.
Have we really moved on in fashion freedom that much since the days when dress code violation was a capital crime.
OK no one dies (normally), but penalties for non-conformity have never gone away and may never be eradicated either.
Steve.
Barleymower
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:56 am https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/sty ... 6cf9&ei=20

Personally, who cares what passes as De Rigeur for the Cheltenham Set because I don't.
However, this raised a question in my mind.
Have we really moved on in fashion freedom that much since the days when dress code violation was a capital crime.
OK no one dies (normally), but penalties for non-conformity have never gone away and may never be eradicated either.
Steve.
I am doing my bit to eradicate it and I encourage my family to do likewise. My daughter and sons have fashion freedoms. Even my wife is exploring her own boundaries. She now wears my shirts with trousers and dms. She wears skirts and she had almost given them up.
But thats just us. Largely I'm ignored on the streets, I had no replies to my plea to schools, Mark from the Herald didn't write back. Even here in the cafe it often feels like a lone voice. Wearing a skirt has made me no friends and will make me no friends.
Ralph
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by Ralph »

Things have eased quite splendidly since I was at university many decades ago. I'm old enough to remember when women of any class simply did not leave the house without gloves (usually white) or men without hats, ties, jackets, and usually vests . Flying was a formal affair; women again with their gloves and men in formal hot suits. When I worked for an engineering firm on the Gulf Coast in the 80's management finally gave in to those unbearably hot summers and did away with jackets but the ties remained mandatory through the end of the century. As recently as 2005 "casual Friday" meant we could wear a whimsically bright coloured tie, but we still had to wear a tie. We've finally gotten to the point that ties are only demanded of top executives and front-line (customer-facing) sales. I'll probably be retired or dead before they give up on those awful hot long-sleeve, button-down shirts that we still have to wear even as the women go around in lovely short-sleeve or sleeveless midi dresses.
Ralph!
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by nzfreestyler »

Here our dress codes re relaxed a lot although business formal stuff here is still strict.
I am more F than M - and where I work although very liberal on one hand they are strict on clothes and our dress code specifically requires blue-black/navy skirts not pants in the scenario for womens attire.

Not that I mind - but I do prefer a dressier standard of appearance all around. We have lost some of our culture and heritage with clothing standards becoming so much more casual.

Dare I say it I think mens casual clothing generally looks a lot scruffier than how women would present in similar code - perhaps that refelects the effort men vs women take in their appearance here in NZ?
STEVIE
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by STEVIE »

nzfreestyler wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:46 am Not that I mind - but I do prefer a dressier standard of appearance all around. We have lost some of our culture and heritage with clothing standards becoming so much more casual.
Hi NZF,
I am sure that it wasn't your intention but the second sentence implies a hankering back to go back to the good old days of binary fashions.
Clothes for work and clothes for play, how much do we really need the quite spurious codes and standards that surround how we cover our bodies?
Gross simplification, but does wearing navy or black make you folks more productive or going crazy green on guinness really honour the patron saint of Ireland?
All I am trying to say is that wherever possible, clothing should be based on individual preference.
Dress-UP, dress-DOWN should become simply DRESS.
Steve.
Last edited by Uncle Al on Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo
nzfreestyler
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by nzfreestyler »

STEVIE wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:59 am Dress-UP, dress-DOWN should become simply DRESS.
Good point Steve - and also you are right in assuming I did not intend to mean that we should go back to the olden days of such distinct dressing.

I personally think we should be free to choose within reason - some standard has to remain. Some choices are a bit too far - such as a cowboy hat worn to the office is in my opinion taking it too far. Some people left to free discretion will always muck things up.

That said I am very grateful to live in a liberal place so I would not be so naive as to try and shut down other peoples options/choices.

I don't mind a bit of standardisation in this sense - but I must admit I am more of a dressed up person than a casual styler. Just how I have always been. I only have one pr of jeans as a case in point - and I don't wear them much.

As an example - the cup days here and the races etc when everyone traditionally gets dressed up and have a bit of fun - nowadays its the drab guys who look shocking - lack of effort and clothes that are not flattering. Irrespective of why that is I just find the loss of standards of presentation as great shame and I think some standardisation goes a wee way to controlling those that would make zero effort - and then get away with that because we are so much more tolerating of variations now.
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by rivegauche »

I work in an organisation that apparently has a dress code but no one ever uses it. People range from business suits with ties or tights depending on gender to those in T-shirts and jeans or even shorts. I do smart casual.

My employers are also very open to people who live outside the norm. I could go to work in a skirt or dress or even dressed as a woman, but I choose not to. In a long career you get a reputation for your achievements and I don't want that to be eclipsed by a reputation for being the guy in the dress. There are those who would take it positively but they would be outnumbered by those who do not. You can legislate for tolerance but not for retention of reputation. It is the old difference between tolerance and acceptance.

Even in a tolerant society, if a man goes to work in a skirt or dress he is crossing a line. Even if he does not lose his job (and losing your job for this would be unlikely in the UK) society doesn't have a box for us so they have difficulty knowing how to react. We see lots of trans women and drag queens seem to be everywhere. There are very, very few male public figures who wear skirts or dresses who are neither drag queens nor trans. Eddie Izzard seems to have thrown his (her) lot in with the trans brigade leaving only the wonderful Grayson Perry. However, his outfits are very 'out there' and few of us would wear his type of clothes. The Brad Pitts of this world do it once and then go back to their breeks. We need male presenters, weathermen, newsreaders and panel show hosts in dresses but I can't see it happening any time soon. Only then will we see managers, bank clerks estate agents and even teachers wearing skirts and dresses.
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

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rivegauche wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:25 am My employers are also very open to people who live outside the norm. I could go to work in a skirt or dress or even dressed as a woman, but I choose not to. In a long career you get a reputation for your achievements and I don't want that to be eclipsed by a reputation for being the guy in the dress. There are those who would take it positively but they would be outnumbered by those who do not. You can legislate for tolerance but not for retention of reputation. It is the old difference between tolerance and acceptance.
Ignoring the haters for a moment - you mention "you get a reputation for your achievements". I think it really depends on the field you are in (how public your person is), and the mindset you have towards the job. I've seen enough people retire now - and be forgotten so shortly afterwards - that it doesn't matter. Not that there is a ton of turnover where I've worked, but when you retire, the memory of you will fade amongst your current coworkers. Maybe there will be passing comments at get togethers when you aren't around, but so what? The job doesn't matter - it's what family, friends, and if you are religious, what god thinks of you. Perhaps if you are close like family it may feel different - but companies/corporations are just a means to make money - it isn't serving the greater good unless it's a non-profit or charity. Even work at a university or hospital can be a means to an end, as lots are either for-profit or the portion you would work in doesn't directly support patient health or well-being.

A traditional view of men in the workforce is that we give our all to our job - our job is our identity, and it brings meaning to our life. I say, bah! Not that a job can't have meaning, but we shouldn't be of the mindset that we subjugate our ideals when it's not required. Ergo, my place of work allows men to wear skirts, I would like to wear them, and I've been doing so over the past three years. Let the job have meaning, but don't get so caught up in it that you think you are building a legacy for yourself. It's just a job, and you will be forgotten after a few generations of workers.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to change - we each do what we must and have our own individual situations.
STEVIE
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by STEVIE »

rivegauche wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:25 am We need male presenters, weathermen, newsreaders and panel show hosts in dresses but I can't see it happening any time soon. Only then will we see managers, bank clerks estate agents and even teachers wearing skirts and dresses.
Perhaps if we had role models, mentors and teachers with the right mindset we wouldn't need to wait for presenters, weathermen, newsreaders and panel show hosts to don dresses and skirts.
I wonder if my younger life could have been easier if I had known that someone I trusted and respected had been there before me.
Regardless of our public presentation, it is still the unwritten dress code that is the greatest barrier to fashion freedom for men.
Coder wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:57 am I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to change - we each do what we must and have our own individual situations.
I'd echo that sentiment too, because we have had differences of opinion on this point before.
However, for anyone who is willing, it is important to show that a man in a skirt can be just that.
Choice alone, no agenda and no nefarious motivation.
Without that, for "any time soon" just read never, it just won't happen.
Steve.
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by familyman34 »

Ralph wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:09 pm Things have eased quite splendidly since I was at university many decades ago. I'm old enough to remember when women of any class simply did not leave the house without gloves (usually white) or men without hats, ties, jackets, and usually vests . Flying was a formal affair; women again with their gloves and men in formal hot suits. When I worked for an engineering firm on the Gulf Coast in the 80's management finally gave in to those unbearably hot summers and did away with jackets but the ties remained mandatory through the end of the century. As recently as 2005 "casual Friday" meant we could wear a whimsically bright coloured tie, but we still had to wear a tie. We've finally gotten to the point that ties are only demanded of top executives and front-line (customer-facing) sales. I'll probably be retired or dead before they give up on those awful hot long-sleeve, button-down shirts that we still have to wear even as the women go around in lovely short-sleeve or sleeveless midi dresses.
Regarding ties, I posted a link on 14th March to David Graeber's 2015 article https://davidgraeber.org/articles/dickh ... -resolved/ in which he discusses inter alia the symbolism inherent in the wearing of ties.

Here is an extract:

Decoration that’s specific to women (earrings, lipstick, eyeshadow, etc.) tends to highlight the receptive organs. Permissible men’s jewelry—rings, cuff links, fancy watches—tends to accentuate the hands. This is, of course, consistent: it is through the hands that one acts upon the world. There’s also the tie clip, but that’s not really a problem. The tie and the cuff links seem to fulfill their functions in parallel, each adding a little decoration to tighten a spot where human flesh sticks out, namely the neck and wrists. They also help seal off the exposed bits from the remainder of the body, which remains effaced, its contours largely invisible.

This observation, I think, points the way to the resolution of our paradox. After all, the male body in a suit does contain a third potentially obtrusive element that is most definitely not exposed, something that, in fact, is not indicated in any way, even though one does have to take it out, periodically, to pee. Suits have to be tailored to allow for urination, which also has to be done in such a way that nobody notices. The fly (which is invisible) is a bourgeois innovation, much unlike earlier aristocratic styles, such as the European codpiece, that often drew explicit attention to the genital region. This is the one part of the male body whose contours are entirely effaced. If hiding something is a way of declaring it a form of power, then hiding the male genitals is a way of declaring masculinity itself a form of power. It’s not just that the tie sits on precisely the spot that, in women’s formal wear, tends to be the most sexualized (the cleavage). A tie resembles a penis in shape, and points directly at it. Couldn’t we say that a tie is really a symbolic displacement of the penis, only an intellectualized penis, dangling not from one’s crotch but from one’s head, chosen from among an almost infinite variety of other ties by an act of mental will?


(Shades of Trump's over-long bright-red ties simultaneously hiding and revealing an insecurity?)
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Don't get me started on "ties" they are the way of the hangman! Who ever invented them should be strung up by the very tie he/she invented. When I finally retired all of my ties went to the rag man. I wanted no more to do with them. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Dress Codes Unwritten

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Fred in Skirts wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:01 pm Don't get me started on "ties" they are the way of the hangman! Who ever invented them should be strung up by the very tie he/she invented. When I finally retired all of my ties went to the rag man. I wanted no more to do with them. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I'm with you - no ties please. I was lucky to work as a technician where ties were not required. Some of the managers or supervisors chose to wear ties - free to choose. At one time we had a new manager who thought technicians who wore suits and ties appeared more professional and hence would be more trusted and valued, he tried to implement it across the business. He moved on after a short time. Where I live if a technician arrived in a suit and tie in 40 deg C heat I would laugh and ask for someone who is really going to do the work.
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