Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.
moonshadow wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:53 am"You do You".
I like it.
Except that it doesn't work.
It's also kinda of a dumb phrase, honestly. Besides, we'd already had a phrase similar to that, which sounds less stupid and universal:
"Just be yourself".
'Course, people get targeted for "being themselves", and it was even worse when there were more societal norms carried out to make people act accordingly to certain expectations. Regardless, neither one transcends any culture, certainly not any special interest; you can get killed in certain places for being gay, being an atheist, or just wearing a certain garment that doesn't pertain to your biological sex.
crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:25 am
Except that it doesn't work.
"You be You" "Just be yourself"
There are any amount of pithy saying that say the same thing and don't work.
Humans don't like non conformity full stop.
Ah well then, it's up to us to make it work for ourselves and by ourselves.
If we don't it will never work!
Steve.
Society's problem with men wearing skirts is rooted in homophobia. There are two problems:
1. Society is concerned about determining a person's sexuality which should be entirely personal and irrelevant.
2. Society equates men that do not conform to the traditional boring men's clothing standard as deviant, or even worse as a pedophile. This is especially true in the Southern part of the United States that has a surplus population of rednecks, hillbillies, white spremacists, and other intolerant folks. In some parts of the Southern United States, being a male that does not conform to the gender standard can get you physically assaulted or killed.
It's really a sad state of affairs that still exists in the 21st century.
jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:54 pm
2. Society equates men that do not conform to the traditional boring men's clothing standard as deviant, or even worse as a pedophile. This is especially true in the Southern part of the United States that has a surplus population of rednecks, hillbillies, white spremacists, and other intolerant folks. In some parts of the Southern United States, being a male that does not conform to the gender standard can get you physically assaulted or killed.
Well, there's certainly no shortage of obnoxious behavior in the southern U.S., but despite all the heckling I've had to endure over the last eight years, I have yet to be physically assaulted, in fact, I don't believe I've ever even come close.
I'm seeing these little window stickers on the back of pickups lately, with the words "YOUR FEELINGS" and a stick figure mounting the words. (It means "@#$% your feelings" for those who don't know). How conservative... how Christian. pfft...
An ironic statement coming from a culture that can be the biggest pansy-assed snowflakes about everything that they don't like.
Bunch of hypocrites!
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
jamie001 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:54 pm
2. Society equates men that do not conform to the traditional boring men's clothing standard as deviant, or even worse as a pedophile. This is especially true in the Southern part of the United States that has a surplus population of rednecks, hillbillies, white spremacists, and other intolerant folks. In some parts of the Southern United States, being a male that does not conform to the gender standard can get you physically assaulted or killed.
Well, there's certainly no shortage of obnoxious behavior in the southern U.S., but despite all the heckling I've had to endure over the last eight years, I have yet to be physically assaulted, in fact, I don't believe I've ever even come close.
I'm seeing these little window stickers on the back of pickups lately, with the words "YOUR FEELINGS" and a stick figure mounting the words. (It means "@#$% your feelings" for those who don't know). How conservative... how Christian. pfft...
An ironic statement coming from a culture that can be the biggest pansy-assed snowflakes about everything that they don't like.
Bunch of hypocrites!
Quite true. Those knuckledraggers turn out to be THE biggest snowflakes who get their boxers in a bunch over the tiniest thing that offends their warped version of masculinity. I can say with pride that I’m more of a man in a dress and high heels than any of those mouthbreathers.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
JeffB1959 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:28 am
Quite true. Those knuckledraggers turn out to be THE biggest snowflakes who get their boxers in a bunch over the tiniest thing that offends their warped version of masculinity. I can say with pride that I’m more of a man in a dress and high heels than any of those mouthbreathers.
The question of what is “masculinity” is difficult to answer. Jeff, your pictures have always been remarkable for the care with which you take to dress and dress well. Small minded folks would see a “transvestite” because they don’t understand the true meaning of that term. They see what they see as an affront on their own masculinity because their thoughts of their own masculinity are as fragile as a house of cards. I would argue your masculinity is more than intact and better developed than those you call “mouth breathers” and “knuckledraggers.” Regardless of masculinity vs femininity questions, you also seem like a good guy. And that’s a seemingly rare thing to find these days. Guess what I’m trying to say is, congrats Jeff, you’ve achieved a comfort in your own skin most have not and I applaud you for you, being you.
JeffB1959 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:28 am
Quite true. Those knuckledraggers turn out to be THE biggest snowflakes who get their boxers in a bunch over the tiniest thing that offends their warped version of masculinity. I can say with pride that I’m more of a man in a dress and high heels than any of those mouthbreathers.
The question of what is “masculinity” is difficult to answer. Jeff, your pictures have always been remarkable for the care with which you take to dress and dress well. Small minded folks would see a “transvestite” because they don’t understand the true meaning of that term. They see what they see as an affront on their own masculinity because their thoughts of their own masculinity are as fragile as a house of cards. I would argue your masculinity is more than intact and better developed than those you call “mouth breathers” and “knuckledraggers.” Regardless of masculinity vs femininity questions, you also seem like a good guy. And that’s a seemingly rare thing to find these days. Guess what I’m trying to say is, congrats Jeff, you’ve achieved a comfort in your own skin most have not and I applaud you for you, being you.
Thanks. At the end of the day, all I can be is myself, and do so the very best I can. I have no use for the form of masculinity prevalent in society today which often tends to be toxic, resulting in neanderthals who abuse their wives or girlfriends or otherwise act like raging buffoons and would probably accuse me of being gay, another aspect of their collective ignorance. Thank goodness I’ve never encountered such goons, and I hope I never do.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
Masculinity is basically defined as the characteristics of "manliness"- whatever that means. So perhaps it comes down to "what is a man?". I suppose it's been a philosophically vexing question for eons. Of course, the traditional "western" definition of what a "man" is, is an adult male human, but I trust you all know what I meant.
It begs the question, if suddenly men in frilly pink prom dresses caught on, would frilly pink prom dressed become "masculine" attire?
The notion of gender seems to be somewhat arbitrary.
In my own situation, I seem to have a muddy mix of masculine and feminine characteristics, with an overly "feminine" gender expression (clothing), my mannerisms are about a 50/50 split I suppose. Females and women have always been drawn to me, but only in a platonic way. It has been this way all my life. Of course when I was a teenager in the height of puberty this was quite an obstacle, but as I've gotten older and in a good 20 years marriage with a woman who basically accepts me for how I am, I find that my "feminine vibe" doesn't bother me at all. I'm not ashamed to admit that I was never a "ladies man", but rather more of a "woman's sister".
It's for this reason, the more I learned about enby, the more I realized this was something I seemed best aligned with. I do not deny that I am a male. I'll let society decide whether I'm "a man" or not. Frankly I couldn't care less, these things are but labels, for the universe cares not. I am what I am.
As for whether a "man" should wear a skirt or not. It's really not up to me. "Men" individually should wear whatever makes them happy. Honestly I don't care either way, as long as they stay out of my way.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
moonshadow wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 am
Men" individually should wear whatever makes them happy.
That was the whole point of the article in the first place.
A man should or shouldn't wear a skirt according only to himself.
His choice, his whim but more importantly, his freedom.
The sort of man that he is has no bearing and no relevance to anyone outwith his orbit or choice.
Steve.
JeffB1959 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:20 am
Thanks. At the end of the day, all I can be is myself, and do so the very best I can. I have no use for the form of masculinity prevalent in society today which often tends to be toxic, resulting in neanderthals who abuse their wives or girlfriends or otherwise act like raging buffoons and would probably accuse me of being gay, another aspect of their collective ignorance. Thank goodness I’ve never encountered such goons, and I hope I never do.
Yeah, I’ve never been able to understand the connection between wearing an article of clothing that is traditionally female and thinking that person must be homosexual. The gay guys I know wouldn’t be caught dead in a dress. As you suggest, it’s likely just the defect in their brains wiring where they default to “gay” any time something in their world doesn’t harm ozone with their myopic views on masculinity.
This is by way of a follow-up and it had to happen to me this morning.
I have submitted a letter for publication and copied Mark Smith in too.
Another reminder that everyone is not happy with men wearing skirts I'm afraid but still no valid reason not to either.
This is the letter,
Sir,
On Saturday 4th of March 2023, you graciously published an article entitled “Why shouldn’t Men Wear Skirts”?
I am one of those men and the article is very well balanced, honest and thought provoking in my opinion.
Up until today I have received nothing but praise and positive feed back from friends and mere acquaintances alike.
Today, however, I had a chance conversation with one of your more venerable readers.
She was bemoaning the fact that she could not find a Herald in Aberdeen and I began by commiserating that I had a similar experience on the 4th. She went on to say that she expected to be featured today and naturally I mentioned the article we were involved with.
On hearing the title her response was and I quote,
“I saw it but didn’t read it as that is just weird”.
Sad to say that I was in no mood to suffer such fools gladly and she is entitled to her own opinion after all.
I’d like to think that among the Herald readership such narrow minded attitudes are not representative but as we concluded then, “there is still much to be achieved”.
As a thrifty Aberdonian, it also begs a question.
Why would anyone spend good money on a genuine newspaper and then not bother to read it?
Seems to me that there are other publications better suited to such individuals.
The exchange took place in a Sainsbury store in the centre of Aberdeen at 11.45 a.m on the 14th of March 2023.
The lady did tell me she is not Aberdonian and if she reads this, I hope that she may reconsider and revisit the article.
She may then be able to give a more rational response?
Stephen Kennedy
Steve.
For not "suffering fools gladly", just read bloody annoyed and it kind of showed.
I did ask if it wasn't "weird" that she was wearing trousers and all got was "practical reasons".
I did, in fact have a problem getting a copy on the 4th but eventually got them in a local convenience type store.
STEVIE wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:23 pm
I did ask if it wasn't "weird" that she was wearing trousers and all got was "practical reasons".
That is an infuriating answer. It really seems to underscore the overall human condition of "do as I say, not as I do".
Frankly my mind boggles that we as a species have made it as far as we have, what with the level of self-righteousness and close mindedness that seems to exist everywhere, I'm really quite amazed we ever made it out of the bronze age. Especially since there is a sizable portion of the population that yearns to return to those days...
Except for your friend. I'm sure she values her freedom to choose... she just doesn't seem to value anyone else's. Perhaps she should return to the ranks of mere chattel, just like they used to do? (And no, I'm not talking about American slavery, I'm referring to the time when most women were basically considered a man's property... you know since the dawn of civilization until around 50 years ago?...) So, now they're free, but they want to rule over others. Just goes to show... these protected classes, women, and such... they ain't no saints. They're just as power hungry and hypocritical as their former oppressors.
Give me a break... you know, I'm just getting so sick of people.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Myopic Bookworm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:09 pm
So far only one response: it triggered my most terf-wing feminist friend to burble irrelevantly about women's changing rooms.
I'd like to read her "burble", the relevance is that many folks may actually agree and it has bearing on the attitudes toward men in skirts.
Please tell her that she can relax, I am old enough to be less than comfortable in "female spaces" anyway.
Yeah, this is why we did the article in the first place, to help eradicate ignorance and suspicion like your friend's.
Steve.
All of us made clear we don't enter female designated spaces, though not in the article. We use mens toilets, we take skirts to the mens changing room in store, etc. The cognitive dissonance is quite baffling at times.
