Men In Skirts - TEDx talk

[STEVIE]

In the case of reluctant partners, I wonder if there's sometimes an element of homophobia: not just "oh no, is my man gay?", but also "if I am partnered with someone slightly feminine, does that make me slightly lesbian?".

Thats the FIRST warning in my standard lecture about how to let your spouse/girlfriend/fiancee in on this part of your life. It's normally aimed at crossdressers but all the talking points apply to men who present as men but wear "gender nonconforming" clothing. I won't rehash the lengthy diatribe here, but the gist of it is:
* She's going to worry that you are gay
* She's going to worry that you want to be a woman
* She's going to be enraged if she finds out on your own or you wait till after you're married, so tell her NOW before it blows up on you

So when you have "the talk", make sure you give her every reassurance that you are not gay and you are not trans-anything. In following up, show her with your actions, not just your words. Show her that you are still all man and she's never going to lose that. Show her that things which are important to you matter more than anything. Do things that she loves even if they bore you to tears. Always put her before yourself, and you'll find that as long as you keep her happy, she won't worry so much about what you're wearing.

That's considerably condensed and oversimplified, but you get the idea.

Hi ALL but particularly MB and Ralph,

The talk from that guy was just about as good as it gets and it echoes a lot of the thoughts here with regard to MIS.
Two takeaways for me in particular, men are not encouraged to play "dress-up" and if you believe it, do it!
He didn't go into ancient fashions as a reason and the skirt he wore wasn't pseudo masculine either.
Now, my take on the quotes. MB, you are certainly correct in that a woman may doubt her own sexuality by being attracted to a man in a skirt.
That said, many men see "their woman's" clothing as affirming their masculinity, which is also utter rubbish.
Ralph, in spite of my own marital difficulties, I would generally agree with you on that statement except for one point.
The strain of submerging one's own happiness in favour of someone else's over a long period will eventually take it's toll.
In my own case, "keeping her happy", simply did not work. Her view of what I wear is no different now than it was 40 years ago when we married.
She also knew about it before I even proposed. My conclusion on that point is that the truth is out there somewhere but it has still to be found.
Any human whose life partner is FULLY accepting of ALL their QUIRKS, FOIBLES and FAILINGS is a remarkably lucky individual.
Certainly one of whom, many around here would be exceedingly envious of.
Steve.

[pelmut]

[...]
So when you have "the talk", make sure you give her every reassurance that you are not gay and you are not trans-anything. In following up, show her with your actions, not just your words.

There is a long history of men doing just that because they were certain in themselves at the time that they weren't trans.  Later (sometimes many years and a whole productive married life later) it becomes apparent that they are, in fact, trans and have been subconsciously suppressing it and even overcompensating with extra 'masculine' behaviour.  At that point a shocked wife accuses her husband of lies and deception, which adds to the stress of the discovery (and often the breakup of the marriage).

There is no deception if the husband doesn't tell the wife something which he isn't aware of himself, but she won't see it like that.  She also may not see that her attraction to her husband was based on a flawed concept of 'masculinity', not on his personality as an individual.

So when you have "the talk", you need to make it clear that this is how you feel now and how you hope to continue -- and you might want to think about why the question was asked.

[rode_kater]

There is a long history of men doing just that because they were certain in themselves at the time that they weren't trans.  Later (sometimes many years and a whole productive married life later) it becomes apparent that they are, in fact, trans and have been subconsciously suppressing it and even overcompensating with extra 'masculine' behaviour.  At that point a shocked wife accuses her husband of lies and deception, which adds to the stress of the discovery (and often the breakup of the marriage).

It is my sincere hope that the increased awareness of the possibilities at school age level will (eventually) consign that phenomenon to history. If you at that age get the chance to experiment and then come to the conclusion it isn't you, then the chance it will happen unexpectedly later in life is much reduced. I have the impression that the whole "turns out gay after 40 years of marriage" trope applies mostly to couples who married when being gay wasn't considered acceptable.

Although strict religious communities will no doubt prevent the phenomenon disappearing completely.

[Offkilter69]

Thats the FIRST warning in my standard lecture about how to let your spouse/girlfriend/fiancee in on this part of your life. It's normally aimed at crossdressers but all the talking points apply to men who present as men but wear "gender nonconforming" clothing. I won't rehash the lengthy diatribe here, but the gist of it is:
* She's going to worry that you are gay
* She's going to worry that you want to be a woman
* She's going to be enraged if she finds out on your own or you wait till after you're married, so tell her NOW before it blows up on you

So when you have "the talk", make sure you give her every reassurance that you are not gay and you are not trans-anything. In following up, show her with your actions, not just your words. Show her that you are still all man and she's never going to lose that. Show her that things which are important to you matter more than anything. Do things that she loves even if they bore you to tears. Always put her before yourself, and you'll find that as long as you keep her happy, she won't worry so much about what you're wearing.

That's considerably condensed and oversimplified, but you get the idea.

This is exactly the approach I plan to take with my SO. Words of wisdom!

[pelmut]

There is a long history of men doing just that because they were certain in themselves at the time that they weren't trans.  Later (sometimes many years and a whole productive married life later) it becomes apparent that they are, in fact, trans and have been subconsciously suppressing it and even overcompensating with extra 'masculine' behaviour.  At that point a shocked wife accuses her husband of lies and deception, which adds to the stress of the discovery (and often the breakup of the marriage).

It is my sincere hope that the increased awareness of the possibilities at school age level will (eventually) consign that phenomenon to history. If you at that age get the chance to experiment and then come to the conclusion it isn't you, then the chance it will happen unexpectedly later in life is much reduced.

Yes, I absolutely agree.

I have the impression that the whole "turns out gay after 40 years of marriage" trope applies mostly to couples who married when being gay wasn't considered acceptable.

Although strict religious communities will no doubt prevent the phenomenon disappearing completely.

There is also entrenched bigotry and binaryism* to consider -- even more-so where transgender is concerned.  "You want to turn me into a lesbian!" ...No, you want to divide people into categories using artificial distinctions and then you want the real World to behave according to your categories.


[* That's a word I made up, don't worry if you can't find it in the dictionary]

[Grok]

Regarding female reactions to MIS....

I have to wonder if we are seeing two different reactions that have similar effects:

1. When men in general wear skirted rigs, women see this as an invasion of their turf.

2. When a husband expresses an interest in wearing skirted rigs, wives suspect he is gay or trans.

So women want to see the Taboo upheld.

[Ralph]

1. When men in general wear skirted rigs, women see this as an invasion of their turf.

Interesting. Since women in general (at least around my part of the world) almost never wear skirts, I wouldn't think they would care. But who knows what goes on in the mind of the smarter sex? I'm always hesitant to speculate on what inner thoughts drive a person's motives.

[Grok]

Well, Ralph, I can't claim to know what women are thinking. I should have added question marks to my last post.

[Offkilter69]

I think a lot of female sexism goes back to basic animal behavior. In most species the male is supposed to be the aggressor, fighter and protector. In the eyes of many females a male cannot be that if he is “feminized” by adopting something that is associated with females. My SO ridicules any sports team that has uniforms that are pastel in color, saying that they do not look tough, and therefore cannot be taken seriously or be winners.

[crfriend]

Since women in general (at least around my part of the world) almost never wear skirts, I wouldn't think they would care.

Grok was quoting me somewhat out of context and without understanding. Here's the follow-up:

[Skirts are] indeed, a very important "piece of land", although I was using "turf" as a euphemism. Of all the symbology in what we call "Western Culture", it's the skirt that most symbolises feminity -- thus it's a powerful statement, and one that women will not want to compromise on, even though they have largely abandoned skirts as a normal garment.

One needs to be careful when directly paraphrasing me without understanding what I'm driving at.

But who knows what goes on in the mind of the smarter sex? I'm always hesitant to speculate on what inner thoughts drive a person's motives.

I was calling out a whole pile of similarities to the behaviours with what goes on in "turf wars", not a direct speculation as to the direct thoughts. Only those who possess those thoughts can really state them.

[STEVIE]

So women want to see the Taboo upheld.

That is certainly not my experience Grok, the most positive support and encouragement I have had has come from women.
Ironically, even my wife would be a hell of a lot more tolerant if it just was not me.
However, morals and ethics aside, my clothes choices are highly unlikely to lead me into a clandestine romance either.
After 15 years of being effectively ignored at home, I will admit that the idea is not unattractive.
The only consolation is that I have broken the "taboo" at a personal level and doing my damnedest to help raze it to the ground.
Oh, and, like the man said, having FUN doing it too!
For you guys who think you have a marriage worth striving for, I honestly do wish you well too.
Steve.

[mishawakaskirt]

So women want to see the Taboo upheld.

That is certainly not my experience Grok, the most positive support and encouragement I have had has come from women.
Ironically, even my wife would be a hell of a lot more tolerant if it just was not me.
However, morals and ethics aside, my clothes choices are highly unlikely to lead me into a clandestine romance either.
After 15 years of being effectively ignored at home, I will admit that the idea is not unattractive.
The only consolation is that I have broken the "taboo" at a personal level and doing my damnedest to help raze it to the ground.
Oh, and, like the man said, having FUN doing it too!
For you guys who think you have a marriage worth striving for, I honestly do wish you well too.
Steve.

Depending on the womans up bringing, I don't think women have a big problem with MIS unless it is their man. Or if he is trying to get into the woman's locker room and bathrooms.
Which at that point you got different problems.

But as just as a man in a skirt it seems like there is positive support and encouragement... Like I said until their man is the one wanting to wear the skirt s. Then all bets are off, and you better duck and cover.

No amount of discussion seems to matter to my wife on the topic of me and skirts. Or kilts, men in kilts are ok, unless it's me, then it's no way!


On another note and a positive one.
I reached out to the creator of the Ted x talk via email, and they replied, and so I have invited them to check out the skirt cafe if they had not heard of it before, time will tell. Hopefully he will check out and join us. I look forward to reading more of his thoughts and experiences.

[photoguy207]

On another note and a positive one.
I reached out to the creator of the Ted x talk via email, and they replied, and so I have invited them to check out the skirt cafe if they had not heard of it before, time will tell. Hopefully he will check out and join us. I look forward to reading more of his thoughts and experiences.

I also contacted him on Instagram and told him I posted the link to his talk here. He heard of the site through another member here but is not a member himself. He was happy that "the talk was meant to start some good discussions, and it sounds like it is working"

I hope his video gets 100 million views!

[Stevej180]

I loved this talk, it sums things up perfectly for me.

I'm lucky, my wife is very accepting and will happily go out with me skirted (except not for seeing her family!). But I have thought about this and come to the conclusion that it's about others' judgement. If I go out skirted I'm well aware that I will attract a lot of attention and stares - that's just how society is. I can imagine a wife (or any companion) being uncomfortable with that and - by association - being judged themselves. But my wife is very confortable in her own skin and not worried about the judgement of others, so maybe that's key.

[ScotL]

I can imagine a wife (or any companion) being uncomfortable with that and - by association - being judged themselves. But my wife is very confortable in her own skin and not worried about the judgement of others, so maybe that's key.

An excellent point. Some people are terrified about the mere prospect of public speaking whilst others love “the stage.” As someone who epitomized the former as a child but now embraces the latter as an adult, I feel the difference is in success whilst up on “the stage.” It comes down to the release of dopamine, the “pleasure” neurotransmitter, in our brains that when released during specific events causes us to want to do the thing that caused it’s release. If you’ve ever been on stage at the end of a good performance, the cheers/clapping/adulation of the crowd is addicting (due to dopamine release). But the fear/butterflies/sweating that occurs before the show goes on can be crippling.

You’ve expertly pointed out that the man wearing the skirt and their SOs are going “on stage.”

I’ve felt the very same feelings going out in a skirt/kilt as I did going “on stage.”