Tennessee Senate Bill 3

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
GoSkirtGo
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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The ACLU of Tennessee has said if you should have this law enforced unfairly against you to contact them. (Presumably if any similar laws should come about in other states the same will apply to the respective local ACLU.)
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:40 pm If I should get arrested for wearing a feminine skirt across the state line after July 1st, will the LBGTQ+ community have my back? It's hard to say. I guess some probably will, but are they going to help me find a job after I lose mine for being arrested? Outlook not so good.
This puts to mind an article I read today about a journalist that went along with Extinction Rebellion (XR) in NL for a while. They're largely fairly ordinary people but they have one thing in common: they don't think merely voting is going to get the job done. Getting arrested is a risk. Though you learn tricks like: the police here have to give you three official warnings before they can arrest you, so if you leave after the first warning there's no chance of being arrested. Not that losing your job is an actual risk after being arrested here, but it takes so much time.

I can't help you with events in America, as an alien I'd be complete fair game and I don't trust your police an inch. Authoritarianism is insidious and people paid with their lives in the past to beat it back. Let's hope it doesn't get that far. But if those LGBT groups don't have your back then they're not as open as they say they are. Though I find it hard to believe that if you're next to them on the barricades they'd still turn their back on you.
moonshadow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 2:40 pm I also have mixed feelings about aligning myself too tightly with a community where such a high percentage view Communism favorably.
Just because some people you associate with view Communism favourably, doesn't make you a communist. Or is McCarthyism really still around?
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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Short and sweet: If you live in a red state, you should be concerned that your governor might try to enact a law similar to what Tennessee had done. I’ve already said this, but the hypocrisy of Republicans on the issue of drag is staggering, I’m 64 and grew up with Geraldine on The Flip Wilson Show; Bugs Bunny reruns; Cpl. Klinger on M.A.S.H.; I thought Tootsie should’ve won the Oscar for Best Picture over Ghandi; and watched Some Like It Hot, Bosom Buddies, Mrs. Doubtfire and White Chicks and nary a peep out of right wingers about kids being “groomed”.

That two faced attitude from Republicans is made even more glaring since they’ve never said jack squat about kiddie beauty pageants where little girls are tarted up like streetwalkers, or photos of hardcore Second Amendment lawmakers who have their kids posing with goddamn assault weapons for crissakes. Now THAT is real grooming, but again, crickets from conservatives. It’s all revolting.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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rode_kater wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:00 pm
I also have mixed feelings about aligning myself too tightly with a community where such a high percentage view Communism favorably.
Just because some people you associate with view Communism favourably, doesn't make you a communist. Or is McCarthyism really still around?
I'm not aware of any McCarthyism. I personally don't take an issue with the idea of Communism, I also like the idea of perpetual motion machines... unfortunately both tend to fail for similar reasons.

It should be noted that I didn't leave the group because it was full if Communist, I left because I was shunned simply for having the opinion that I don't believe it would work... that and not wanting everything I have worked for become communal property.

I'm sorry... but the shunning just left a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:58 amI'm not aware of any McCarthyism. I personally don't take an issue with the idea of Communism, I also like the idea of perpetual motion machines... unfortunately both tend to fail for similar reasons.
McCarthyism is still very much alive and well in the good ol' USA. We still have the warped notions of communism, and we're still expected to parrot the words "under god" during The Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag) -- which I think is a notion that's entirely peculiar to the USA (and quite offensive now).
I'm sorry... but the shunning just left a bad taste in my mouth.
That's one of the oldest and crudest ways of treating people. However, it works which is why it's still in use. At least in the modern world it's not the equivalent to a death sentence.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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The amended bill adds some protection for MIS:
entertainment that appeals to a prurient interest,
Just as has always been the case since the first anti-obscenity laws, the devil is in the details - in this case the word "prurient". What is and isn't prurient? Some might say it's limited to minimal clothing that's designed to reveal as much of reproductive bits as possible without violating nudity laws; others might say a man dressed as Mary Poppins is prurient. "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" was the battle cry back in the day.

As it happens, this subject has gotten a lot more notice among my social media friends elsewhere. As far as I can tell the whole thing erupted over leaks from a Caba Baba Rave event, which is billed as a drag queen cabaret for babies (hence the "caba" and "baba" parts of the name). As a parent and now a grandparent, I have to admit some of those videos give me concerns about age-appropriate performances. We're not talking about men dressed as Mary Poppins here, we're talking about g-strings, bondage fetish gear (leather harnesses and the like), and pelvic-thrusting up in the babies' business. Hopefully the legislators can draw a distinction between that and a man who dresses non-provocatively as part of his daily wardrobe, but if we have learned nothing else from over two centuries of legislation and lawyers, it's that precise details matter both in favour and against the defendant. Don't just say "prurient interest", explicitly define what you mean by that, what is and is not included, etc.

That being said, there's also a First Amendment question at stake: How much of this is the responsibility of the performers and how much is the responsibility of the parents to choose wisely? If similar content were shown in a movie theatre, they would slap an R rating on it and leave the parents liable if they allow unaccompanied minors into such a show. There would be no protests that the theatre should not exist or should not be allowed to show that kind of performance.

Which brings us to:
(A) On public property; or
(B) In a location where the adult cabaret performance could be viewed by a person who is not an adult
I don't entirely disagree with those restrictions, depending again on their definition of "prurient." I would certainly not want Caba Baba (if you haven't seen the video clips, please look for some of those) in a public park, library, etc. where children just going to play hopscotch will be exposed to a cabaret against their and their parents' desires. Likewise I would not want my neighbour to host such an event on their front lawn visible to any and all passersby.

As always, the people on each side have not (in the discussions I've seen) made any effort to understand the other side's concerns. They jump straight to demonizing anyone who disagrees with them in any way, and defending even the most extreme elements as long as those elements are on the "right" side of the argument. To the people who favour the bill, anyone who opposes it supports ch--d p--n and to the people who oppose the bill, anyone who supports it is a fascist everythingphobe.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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I went back to re-read the OP of this discussion, and I'd like to point out what "for consideration" means in this context. "Consideration" is legalese for payment or other exchange of value for the performance. That statement means that whether there was payment to attend the event or not is irrelevant.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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Ralph wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:54 pm As far as I can tell the whole thing erupted over leaks from a Caba Baba Rave event, which is billed as a drag queen cabaret for babies (hence the "caba" and "baba" parts of the name). As a parent and now a grandparent, I have to admit some of those videos give me concerns about age-appropriate performances. We're not talking about men dressed as Mary Poppins here, we're talking about g-strings, bondage fetish gear (leather harnesses and the like), and pelvic-thrusting up in the babies' business. Hopefully the legislators can draw a distinction between that and a man who dresses non-provocatively as part of his daily wardrobe, but if we have learned nothing else from over two centuries of legislation and lawyers, it's that precise details matter both in favour and against the defendant. Don't just say "prurient interest", explicitly define what you mean by that, what is and is not included, etc.
Ralph's response have given a different perspective. I'm sitting here thinking that the meat to this debate comes down to drag queens like Aida Dee, which based on what I've seen thus far, seems pretty harmless, if not a little eccentric.

However.. "Caba Baba"? Okay, I have admittedly never heard of this before, so I went to YouTube for some example, and so far all I can see is short clips sandwiched within videos of negative commentary. I like to view both sides of any situation so I can build context before forming an opinion, however, that said, based on what I'm seeing so far, when it comes to whether "Caba Baba" is okay for children, my initial response is: no.

In fact, some of the stuff I saw on those clips rival anything I personally witnessed at an actual LGBT night club!

So pass me some of that crow... if this is the kind of thing the red states are trying to get a handle on, and if it's really as X rated as it appears on those videos I'm watching, then yeah, I can see the need for the updated law, and no, I don't think this applies to "men in skirts", nonbinary people, transgender women, and even modestly clad drag queens. Will some extreme right wingers complain if someone like me crosses the state line? Probably, but I don't expect the law to do anything.

Thanks for posting that Ralph. It really helps shed some perceptive. This is why I love our group here... we can really explore and hash out some touch topics and at the end of the day become more informed and well rounded.

So, based on this new information, while yes, in many aspects the right wing needs to get a grip, but here, their concerns seem to be reasonable and I'd say on this one matter, the far left needs to get a grip.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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crfriend wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:54 pm
I'm sorry... but the shunning just left a bad taste in my mouth.
That's one of the oldest and crudest ways of treating people. However, it works which is why it's still in use. At least in the modern world it's not the equivalent to a death sentence.
Well, it was just this one group. We ultimately had to agree to disagree, but it just seemed like the "magic" was gone after it was determined I wasn't really digging the whole Communist thing.

But really, I fail to understand why promoting Communism and LGBT rights have to go hand in hand. One is an economic theory, the other is a matter of personal human rights. It's possible to have an anti-LGBT Communist state as it's possible to have a pro-LGBT capitalist state, I mean, in the latter, we kind of live in one.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these people who goes around ranting about "Commie liberals" and praising Capitalism. Both have their pros and cons and Capitalism is FAR from perfect. I just believe that given the mindset of most humans, and how we lust after material gain, fame, and fortune, a base Capitalist economy with good social ["socialist"] safety nets is probably be most logical path forward, however clunky it may be at times.

As I've often said, I'm sure I've done business is quite a few establishments where the proprietor probably rants about people like me (gender non-conforming people) behind closed doors, BUT- as is almost always the case, their love for money trumps their hatred for me and/or what I do. Capitalism gives me a vote in places where I may otherwise not have one, like in other towns or states, or even other countries! -For I can vote with my wallet.

Under Communism, all the state has to do is ban gender non-conforming people, men in skirts, etc and that's it. There's nothing you can do about it, as all business interest are owned by the state, and so, you comply or starve to death. These people in question better be careful what they wish for.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:35 pmUnder Communism, all the state has to do is ban gender non-conforming people, men in skirts, etc and that's it. There's nothing you can do about it, as all business interest are owned by the state, and so, you comply or starve to death. These people in question better be careful what they wish for.
That's closer to authoritarianism or even totalitarianism than either communism or capitalism. Pure communism is doomed to failure because of human nature; ditto pure capitalism as that's just the dog-eat-dog "law of the jungle". All developed countries employ a blend of the two to keep the rough edges of each out of sight.

That having been said, the USA has been taking on a very nasty authoritarian stance in the past few decades, and I can only see that accelerating going forward. Once the slide starts, it usually finishes at the worst possible ending for the general populace.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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Snopes confirms these videos are legit...

I just hope most people realize that these shows have nothing in common with men in skirts, enbies, or transgender women.

It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Now that this has went viral on right wing media, I'm a little concerned about being accosted by Joe SixPack who doesn't know the difference.
crfriend wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:00 am Pure communism is doomed to failure because of human nature; ditto pure capitalism as that's just the dog-eat-dog "law of the jungle". All developed countries employ a blend of the two to keep the rough edges of each out of sight.
+1
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:02 amNow that this has went viral on right wing media, I'm a little concerned about being accosted by Joe SixPack who doesn't know the difference.
That'll be one part of the blowback on men in skirts, but usually if our street smarts and our wits are gathered won't likely be a problem. I'm more worried about officious cops getting a hair across their backside (or "not getting any" the night before) and going after us. In the first case, you always have the option of defending yourself; in the latter, you've got no option but to surrender (else you die).

I'll admit that this -- like most things in the modern world -- is a nuanced situation, and it's being played to the hilt by both sides. Where's consideration and moderation here? Or are those completely dead ideals? (I'm beginning to suspect the latter.)

The hard-liners will get what they want, that's just the way things are here at the moment -- and the Supreme Court will back them up. (Although I am infamously on record as having commented more than once, "In a post-Constitutional society, what role does a Supreme Court play?" This was not a popular question.)
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:19 pm However.. "Caba Baba"? Okay, I have admittedly never heard of this before, so I went to YouTube for some example, and so far all I can see is short clips sandwiched within videos of negative commentary. I like to view both sides of any situation so I can build context before forming an opinion, however, that said, based on what I'm seeing so far, when it comes to whether "Caba Baba" is okay for children, my initial response is: no.
Ok, I'm going to hold the contrarian view then. It's hard to find good videos because they're all cut in with commentary about how bad it all is. But the bits I saw just looked like people doing circus acts in unusual clothing that I guess could be called drag. If this sort of thing is a problem, don't ever go to the beach where you're going to see a lot more skin and tighter clothing than this.

None of the bits I saw even seemed remotely sexual, but I know that determination can be incredibly culturally specific. There are people who find seeing a women's ankle to be a sexual act.

So I'm siding with the parents here. If the act is appropriately advertised and the parents choose to go, that's their choice. The politicians can bloody well butt out and keep their Puritanism to themselves.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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rode_kater wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:31 am Ok, I'm going to hold the contrarian view then. It's hard to find good videos because they're all cut in with commentary about how bad it all is. But the bits I saw just looked like people doing circus acts in unusual clothing that I guess could be called drag. If this sort of thing is a problem, don't ever go to the beach where you're going to see a lot more skin and tighter clothing than this.
The Snopes article offers some context, and I had actually considered this before I read it... That basically the events are only open to parents that bring along babies and toddlers *not* "children", I think the idea being that babies and toddlers won't remember it anyway, and thus, have no long term effect.

It technically not even for babies but for parents to attend a show and blow off some steam.

Still, I'm not sure I'd agree regarding the lack of awareness by babies. Crazy as it may sound, I actually have a very few, very brief memories of my VERY young years. I don't know the exact age, but I'd approximate it to be between 1 and 3 years old. One was actually a nightmare about those colored bowling pins they used to make... yes, bowling pins. I also have a very short memory of a surgery I had that scared the hell out of me.

Interesting that the only images I have from those very early years are images where I was utterly terrified. Interestingly enough, to this day I still don't bowl, and I was terrified of doctors and hospitals well under my young adult years.

The first four or five years of a humans development are critical. It basically forms the "kernel" [computer term] of the brain for life. Tread lightly... this could backfire and the baby grow into a child that is terrified of drag queens and an adult that hates them. It could go either was by a 50/50 shot. You never know how a baby's brain is going to piece something together.

The first five years of my step daughters life were a hot mess, being kidnapped by her grandmother where she fled to another state and lived a very odd life where, among other things we suspect she was forced to witness some bizarre incidents (I'm not going into specifics here out of respect), but those incidents linger to this day and Amber is very much mentally damaged as a result of it.

Tread lightly.
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Re: Tennessee Senate Bill 3

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moonshadow wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:53 amThe first four or five years of a humans development are critical. It basically forms the "kernel" [computer term] of the brain for life. Tread lightly... this could backfire and the baby grow into a child that is terrified of drag queens and an adult that hates them. It could go either was by a 50/50 shot. You never know how a baby's brain is going to piece something together.
The above rings very true.

Taking my own existence as an example, I had a dramatic change in environment when I was about one (or thereabouts), and that created a "demon" that I had to learn how to deal with in my current life when it got repeatedly "kicked" by a modern love interest (which relationship has since been terminated). This was a remnant of the loss of my mother from my life before I was even verbal or communicative (and that carried forward to my modern life). Specifically, it created a situation where I am very vulnerable to deep-seated pains of abandonment when visited upon me by one of my inner-circle "going dark" on me, especially if I am very much in love with them. Fortunately, that's limited to "one at a time" but was where I was sitting six months ago -- and the pain it was producing was nothing short of epic.

Desperate to find out what it was that was vexing me so, I had a very uncomfortable conversation with her one evening where I subordinated my intellect to my emotion. This was a big risk, but it had a big payoff because it flushed the "demon" out of hiding, and I "caught sight of it" in my mind's eye as it scampered for alternate cover. Since it is non-communicative, I can't reason with it, and that left me with the choice of trying to kill it or merely protect it from future hurt. I chose the latter.

How did I identify it? By inference -- reading my own "baby-book" not for what was written down, but what wan't and discovered that my mother had left my life long before i could communicate other than crying or shrieking. Other factors scuttled the romance, but I did learn that one lesson from it, and it was a rather bizarre trip through my own brain.

Children are vastly more aware than we think they are -- because at that point they're essentially trying to cold-start their minds into being capable of interpreting and interacting with the very complex world around them. It's an astonishing process, and one that nobody really understands -- because it happens without reference-points, milestones, or guide-posts. However it works, the immature mind is something very, very different from the adult mind -- and it works in ways that are sometimes quite bizarre.

To the photograph of Aida Dee, I took that and posed a question to what would have been my 5-year old self, and asked, "How would you deal with this?" -- and the answer came back that, "I'd be scared. Not terrified scared, but quite spooked indeed."

As Moonshadow states, "Tread lightly."
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