The New York Times: Defining Nonbinary Work Wear

[STEVIE]

We're adults. We can make up our own minds.

When we were mere babes and couldn't, I certainly don't recall being given a choice.
I also knew better than to ask to be allowed to wear a skirt.
I might as well have told the family minister to dance naked in church.
The consequences would have been comparable.
Another point is the 99% of men who have no wish to wear skirts, I will assume Moon was using that in jest.
The estimated figure for men who cross dress is generally accepted at around 10%. In Britain that equates with about 3 million guys who would logically like to wear a skirt or a dress as a matter of choice.
There are around 240,000 men who work in my organisation and in ten years no one else has surfaced choosing office wear as I have.
The evidence suggests that Moon may be closer to the truth but for the wrong reason.
99% of males are simply afraid of the consequences of admitting that they would like to wear a skirt or dress at work, school or play.
Finally, the "fish that need to be fried". There are things we can affect and things that we cannot. Conditions, political and physical across the globe need not concern me directly. They will develop without any input from me.
That will not stop me from trying to get people to be aware that there is always some choice and a freedom that is worth fighting for. You can apply that wherever, men's fashion freedom is but one example.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

We're adults. We can make up our own minds.

When we were mere babes and couldn't, I certainly don't recall being given a choice.
I also knew better than to ask to be allowed to wear a skirt.
I might as well have told the family minister to dance naked in church.
The consequences would have been comparable.
Another point is the 99% of men who have no wish to wear skirts, I will assume Moon was using that in jest.
The estimated figure for men who cross dress is generally accepted at around 10%. In Britain that equates with about 3 million guys who would logically like to wear a skirt or a dress as a matter of choice.
There are around 240,000 men who work in my organisation and in ten years no one else has surfaced choosing office wear as I have.
The evidence suggests that Moon may be closer to the truth but for the wrong reason.
99% of males are simply afraid of the consequences of admitting that they would like to wear a skirt or dress at work, school or play.
Finally, the "fish that need to be fried". There are things we can affect and things that we cannot. Conditions, political and physical across the globe need not concern me directly. They will develop without any input from me.
That will not stop me from trying to get people to be aware that there is always some choice and a freedom that is worth fighting for. You can apply that wherever, men's fashion freedom is but one example.
Steve.

I think a definition of cross dressing is needed. Probably back in the day when men and women’s clothes where similar there were similar numbers of cross dressers. That is, men or women who dress completely in the opposite genders clothes and present themselves as that gender. In my opinion that is vastly different from someone who wears a skirt or dress for the super freeing sensation or someone who wears the other genders fabric because they like the way they feel.
You say there are 240,000 men who work in your organisation and in ten years no one else has surfaced choosing office wear as you have. Fear being the main reason. I would like to put forward some other reasons:
1. Fear (already said)
2. They have no interest in it.
3. They don’t understand the feelings they have in this way and choose to ignore them. The human body performs billions of calculations to function and we, the conscious mind are primarily concerned to two things. Eating and reproducing, everything else is a hobbie. Some are not smart enough to get it.
4. They know that if they do they wont be able to stop. They will unleash something inside and won’t be able to put it back in.

I think it goes to show that those who are smart enough to understand ourselves and want this for ourselves and can function as men are a rare beast. I want to fight but I don’t know how, other than what I am doing. I also know that it is like putting my hand in a river. On my own I will have little effect. I kick myself for not going to Glasgow. I can only make sure I don’t make the same mistake twice. I expect I’ll make completely new mistakes.

[STEVIE]

HI BM,
Yes, I view cross-dressing and transvestism in a similar light which is to present or disguise oneself as a member of the opposite sex.
However, it is all we have to base the guess on numbers wise.
I have done the transvestite bit simply because I didn't know that I could wear a skirt or dress and still present as a male.
That very singular realisation was the epiphany for me and the empowerment awesome.
Back to the damned numbers though.
If we accept that 10% of the male population "cross-dress", I'd assume we can presume that they wish to wear a skirt or dress.
That is the easy part but it begs a question. Within that number, how many would simply wish or choose to be a guy in a skirt?
That is the bigger question and it goes right back to what we are taught to think we are "ALLOWED" to wear as boys.
Quite frankly if I still needed Sara to help me wear a skirt or dress, I wouldn't have been the same person that I am today.
That is the message I want to get out as far and wide as I can, by banging on in any way that I can, collective or singular, I don't care.
On that note too, I am expecting to tie up the Peterborough trip this week, aiming to be down 17th March and stay for ? but at least 3 or 4 days.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

HI BM,
Yes, I view cross-dressing and transvestism in a similar light which is to present or disguise oneself as a member of the opposite sex.
However, it is all we have to base the guess on numbers wise.
I have done the transvestite bit simply because I didn't know that I could wear a skirt or dress and still present as a male.
That very singular realisation was the epiphany for me and the empowerment awesome.
Back to the damned numbers though.
If we accept that 10% of the male population "cross-dress", I'd assume we can presume that they wish to wear a skirt or dress.
That is the easy part but it begs a question. Within that number, how many would simply wish or choose to be a guy in a skirt?
That is the bigger question and it goes right back to what we are taught to think we are "ALLOWED" to wear as boys.
Quite frankly if I still needed Sara to help me wear a skirt or dress, I wouldn't have been the same person that I am today.
That is the message I want to get out as far and wide as I can, by banging on in any way that I can, collective or singular, I don't care.
On that note too, I am expecting to tie up the Peterborough trip this week, aiming to be down 17th March and stay for ? but at least 3 or 4 days.
Steve.

Stevie, How many men would wish to wear a skirt? Try this on for size: All of them! Ok with a few exceptions. My eldest son would not bother, he would wear the same clothes every day until the rot and fall off. Same for some women. It is my contention that all men like to look good, all men like a bit of colour all men like quality fabric. All men like to smell nice. Just like women. They just don't want to be viewed as women and the women don't want other women instead of their men folk.
I agree with Jamie on another thread that by doing what we are doing we need to recognise that there is a female part of our nature. Otherwise we would find another way to rebel. That does not mean in any way that we are trans, queer, gay or any of the million other definitions out there. We are normal men with normal desires.
I'll be seeing you then in Peterborough

[rode_kater]

Trying to define the the "crossdressing" is an interesting exercise. The way it's treated in most places (AFAICT) is as the broadest umbrella relating to the wearing of clothes typically recognised as being for the other gender. So whether you pass or not, whether you're doing drag, etc, it all falls under the term "crossdressing".

So when you're doing studies, what these people really being asked is: do you consider what you're doing crossdressing or not? Apparently 10% says yes.

So here's the kicker: like some others here I started out wearing skirts, even the fake boob (bags of rice) and definitely considered myself as a crossdresser. Yet now, years later, I wonder if I still call myself that. That's a transition that people have to make for themselves. When I'm wearing a skirt these days I (mostly) no longer consider that crossdressing because I no longer consider the skirt an exclusively female garment. Other people may see that differently, but it matters what I call myself, not what others call me.

We will have won when people no longer consider men wearing skirts crossdressing.

I think we're making progress.

[ScotL]

Transvestism, medically, is a term to describe someone who gets sexually aroused wearing clothing traditionally associated with the gender they do not identify with. Somewhat ironically, they tend to be straight males.

I define cross dressing as someone who wears the clothing of the other gender but also a tries to pass as one of the other gender.

What I do is wear a skirt as a man. It neither sexually arouses me nor makes me feel like I’m a woman. And I definitely don’t act like a stereotypical woman as classified by the “normal” mainstream folks suggest a “normal” woman would act. In fact if anything, I feel like I need to be more stereotypically male when I’m wearing a skirt to ensure others do not think I’m cross dressing.

[crfriend]

Transvestism, medically, is a term to describe someone who gets sexually aroused wearing clothing traditionally associated with the gender they do not identify with. Somewhat ironically, they tend to be straight males.

The main problem here is that it is only applied to males and never to females. This makes it a very sharp weapon indeed, and needs to either be regulated or expunged from the vocabulary and literature.

[Ozdelights]

The main problem here is that it is only applied to males and never to females. This makes it a very sharp weapon indeed, and needs to either be regulated or expunged from the vocabulary and literature.

Good observation. If it is only being applied to one gender then it is a 'sexist' term.

[Barleymower]

There are not many of us, we are thinly spread across the world. The word transvestism/transvestite doesn't feel right, it's unjust and makes a man in a skirt feel more alone.

[ScotL]

Transvestism, medically, is a term to describe someone who gets sexually aroused wearing clothing traditionally associated with the gender they do not identify with. Somewhat ironically, they tend to be straight males.

The main problem here is that it is only applied to males and never to females. This makes it a very sharp weapon indeed, and needs to either be regulated or expunged from the vocabulary and literature.

This is not a correct statement medically. The word transvestite does apply to females who are sexually aroused by wearing mens clothing. It is not as commonly found as in men but it does occur. As a medical syndrome, it is not a sharp weapon or a weapon at all. Skilled psychiatrists do not see it that way nor do they practice in a way to wield it as a weapon. Using the word transvestite as a weapon only occurs by the ignorant who do not understand the terminology.

[ScotL]

There are not many of us, we are thinly spread across the world. The word transvestism/transvestite doesn't feel right, it's unjust and makes a man in a skirt feel more alone.

When used appropriately, it’s just a medical finding. Unless you are sexually aroused by wearing a skirt, the term does not apply to you.

[ScotL]

The main problem here is that it is only applied to males and never to females. This makes it a very sharp weapon indeed, and needs to either be regulated or expunged from the vocabulary and literature.

Good observation. If it is only being applied to one gender then it is a 'sexist' term.

But is it not applied only to one gender. It is seen more often in men but the word itself implies no gender intrinsically. It is only the misunderstanding of the terminology that produces the sexist feelings associated with the term.

[STEVIE]

Isn't it a pity that we couldn't re-programme society to fit in with our own world views?
It would save so much trouble and potential strife.
Society will interpret words as society sees fit, we can only attempt to educate and enlighten.
I wonder how many people have been killed due to "misunderstood terminology"?

even the fake boob (bags of rice)

Basmati, boiled or fried by Uncle Ben perhaps?
Mine were from strawberry jelly by "Quivers". Sealed in multi layers of plastic, I hasten to add!
Looking back on it, bloody ludicrous, futile and a long way from a "turn-on".
Today, I will be just ME in a skirt or dress as I see fit.
No fakery, but if anyone judges that as being WRONG, frankly, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Isn't it a pity that we couldn't re-programme society to fit in with our own world views?
It would save so much trouble and potential strife.
Society will interpret words as society sees fit, we can only attempt to educate and enlighten.
I wonder how many people have been killed due to "misunderstood terminology"?

even the fake boob (bags of rice)

Basmati, boiled or fried by Uncle Ben perhaps?
Mine were from strawberry jelly by "Quivers". Sealed in multi layers of plastic, I hasten to add!
Looking back on it, bloody ludicrous, futile and a long way from a "turn-on".
Today, I will be just ME in a skirt or dress as I see fit.
No fakery, but if anyone judges that as being WRONG, frankly, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
Steve.

https://youtu.be/GQ5ICXMC4xY

[crfriend]

But is it not applied only to one gender. It is seen more often in men but the word itself implies no gender intrinsically. It is only the misunderstanding of the terminology that produces the sexist feelings associated with the term.

I give up. Who wants my position?

Every time I've written something recently it's been fully quoted and then twisted around without regard to the actual point.

Finis!