History

[STEVIE]

I have no interest in re-hashing the argument as to whether clothing was "gender fluid" in history.
The age of the original is irrelevant, the pictures date from the 20s, before anyone here was born at any rate,
Without wishing to cast any negatives, wearing a skirt or dress as a guy may be new to you but it has a longer history than you may imagine.
Do not imagine that men and women simply accepted the shackles of convention in the past.
They were fighting it before anyone in the cafe was born and at greater personal risk too.
Much of my own personal history, failures and achievements are around the cafe too.
As we approach 2023, I am also happy enough that I shall be doing my level best to spread the message as far and as often as possible.
That message will never be wholly positive but neither is real life.
If that is interpreted as disdain or outright discouragement then I am afraid that harder lessons may await.
No one can learn from someone else's mistakes
No apologies.
Steve.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ga ... e#11259638

[moonshadow]

Some of these are a little suspect...

vintage 1905.jpg

I've looked up "womens style early 1900's" and I can't find any skirts in the mainstream that are that short. Not only that but the overall styles seem very modern, as to the very short sleeved tops. Women would run the risk of arrest wearing outfits like that circa 1905, and men... FORGET ABOUT IT!

Also, there is no way a man with that narrow of a waist has hips that wide. I suppose he could be padding his hips, but the overall masculine pose seems to suggest otherwise.

I suspect some photoshopping going on here...

Don't get me wrong, I like the outfits, and these are the type of clothes I wear all the time without incident, but then again, these clothes are what's hanging on the peg at retailers here in 2022. I don't start to see skirts like that turn up in historical photographs regularly until the 1950's.

[moonshadow]

male flappers.jpg

These "flappers" seem like they're having a pretty good time.

I'll also add that these dresses are another one I could have mentioned in the other thread where we discuss what we'd wear if we could do so freely.

In this case, the outfits are casual enough to wear out and about for the most part, and while I expect some gawking, obscenities, [0] etc, I think I could survive wearing something like this if only I could find one in my size in that vintage.

Fun side note: I noticed that these ladies apparently pass for what's considered "drag" back in the 1920's. Nothing against modern day drag queens, but these ladies seem more inline with what we might consider modern day crossdressing or perhaps even moving into transgender women territory. I do wonder if some of the blowback from militant right wingers storming public libraries might be tamed a little if modern day drag queens adopted more... a-hem... how do you say... conservative dress such as this?

I ask all seriousness and laying my cynicism to the side. One of the common rants I hear from these militant types is how "sexualized" the modern day drag queens present themselves, whereas the women in the photo above don't seem nearly as sexualized by comparison, though for the 1920's that may have not been the case.

Nah... they'd still complain.

Just a thought...

[0] I get these anyway afterall...

[Coder]

Same - there were too many photos to track down each and every source (reverse google image search could help sort these out). I also wonder what the real context in some of these are - it was illegal to wear clothes of the opposite gender at the time, but I presume some leeway for vaudeville acts and if you were mocking people.

[STEVIE]

Different nations and different laws, then and now.
There was a famous law case documented in a book, "Fanny and Stella". Two cross dressing male prostitutes who were pursued and prosecuted for their way of living.
Then we have Quentin Crisp, "The Naked Civil Servant". Not a cross-dresser but highly fluid and flamboyantly gay. His time was pre second world war in London.
Certainly there were elements of entertainment and plain tomfoolery in some of the pictures but taboo breaking can be very dangerous.
In many respects, the courage or simple desperation that it too must have rivalled that of many battlefield heroes.
Point is that generally, we can go "out and about" without too much fear but it is by no means universal.
The differences we see today must at least partly attributed to those earliest pioneers and now we have the responsibility to take it further.
Steve.

[Coder]

Different nations and different laws, then and now.

It's supposedly still illegal for a guy to wear a skirt in Italy. Probably not enforced, but I find it interesting (and sad because some days I dream of leaving everything and moving there).

Point is that generally, we can go "out and about" without too much fear but it is by no means universal.

Very true! I think the things we have to fear nowadays are less about punishment by law, but rather ostracization by our peers. Less of a burden, but still a hurdle.

The differences we see today must at least partly attributed to those earliest pioneers and now we have the responsibility to take it further.

I wonder. Often other interest groups claim they paved the way for "us", but it's unclear to me what has caused society to relax a bit. I presume men and women have always had a small subset who were "jealous" of what the other side got - it seems women are better able to shake off the shame/stigma than men.

[moonshadow]

I wonder. Often other interest groups claim they paved the way for "us", but it's unclear to me what has caused society to relax a bit. I presume men and women have always had a small subset who were "jealous" of what the other side got - it seems women are better able to shake off the shame/stigma than men.

I'd argue it likely comes down to three main circumstances:

1) Increased immigration over the 20th century diversifying the populous.

2) Increased national and world media, in addition to the coming of the internet and the sharing of ideas between average citizens.

3) The above two have led to an increased notions of "libertarianism" combined with a rejection of paternalism over the last fifty or so years.

Most people seem to be on board with "freedom" these days. Even among those we may disagree with, provided we stay out of their way, they usually stay out of ours...

Yes... even in Tennessee... for now.

In fact, looking over my list, I'd give the most weight to the internet. If not for the free internet, I don't think we'd have many of the modern freedoms we take for granted.

[Coder]

In fact, looking over my list, I'd give the most weight to the internet. If not for the free internet, I don't think we'd have many of the modern freedoms we take for granted.

Totally the internet, not sure how that escaped me.

[ScotL]

Agreed with the Internet driving a lot of this. If not for the anonymity of the internet, most people wouldn’t ask the same questions typed into google.

[crfriend]

I'm not convinced that it's primarily the Internet that's driving "acceptance". I'm sure it's played a role, but I doubt that it's a leading role.

I'm growing increasingly certain that it's the overall level of stress that we're all being subjected to because society -- as we know it -- is in the process of collapsing under economic pressures and the havoc that causes (see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, esp the foundational ones having to do with security). We're so worried about our own futures we really don't have the time or even capability to worry all that much about others. After all, when you're not certain where your next meal is coming from or if you'll still have a home tomorrow it's rather difficult to worry about what somebody else is wearing -- and this also fits the general mode of attire today -- Goblin Mode (I really like that!) -- because it's basic, functional, and generally invisible (i.e. "Don't be a target!").

[STEVIE]

I suspect some photoshopping going on here...

Whoa right there Moon, I'm the cynical old curmudgeon around here. You may be right, but I just can't see any percentage in it.
There were definitely laws against cross-dressing and recorded prosecutions so we know that some individuals took the plunge.
Sorry but creating fake or doctoring old shots seems a bit pointless, wouldn't you agree.
The picture you used struck me as the jolly jape variety. Three drunken sailors on a bit of shore leave and maybe not even in Europe.
There is also the possibility that the skirts were home made too, who knows.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Carl, I don't conclude that society it collapsing. It is going through a period of change. Change that is sweeping me along and I have no control over it. It could end, it most likely won't. Not yet anyway.

Stevie, All those fantastic pictures of men and women in each others clothes. Posing, getting married, getting drunk or muddy. It reminds me of the blade runner quote "all these moments will be lost in time like tears in rain".

Looking all the pictures Stevie has found wether real or photoshoped makes me think we are just another group finding our way just like them. I used to walk the streets with such envy. Now I wake up and spend half an hour choosing what to wear .

I just bought a navy toast skirt. This one in fact: ebay 204164690402. I immediately ironed it and burnt a hole in the delicate fabric. Aaaaaarh. It's in a local tailors being mended. ALLWAYS READ THE LABEL.

[STEVIE]

ALLWAYS READ THE LABEL.

......and I bet no one will.

I'm growing increasingly certain that it's the overall level of stress that we're all being subjected to because society -- as we know it -- is in the process of collapsing under economic pressures and the havoc that causes

While things aren't so good here, they are not at the level of the United States. Frankly, if the situation in the Ukraine fully escalates the Hierarchy of Needs will be experienced at it's most fundamental level. However, one can only live in hope that maybe for once Mankind will pay heed to history and learn before it is too late.
Meantime, all I can do is change what I can and make most of what I have.
Oh, and have some fun along the way too. "It takes so long to figure out just what I'm going to wear, just another manic ..........y"
Yup and I may be late too, but that's life.
Steve.

[rode_kater]

I don't think it's the internet either. If you look through the last decades, the increasing acceptance of gays, blended families, etc I think this is right in line with the rest. The internet may have made it more visible, but I think it would have happened regardless.

Although it's getting increasingly difficult to remember the world prior to the internet. So much has changed.

Despite appearances to the contrary, we have never had it so good. There are issues with the distribution of wealth, but even poor people today are much better off than poor people 50 or 100 years ago. This isn't the end (though with climate change coming, the future isn't necessarily going to be great).

[moonshadow]

Regardless of the longevity of society or "the world", for every one of us, it will be over in just a few more decades.

In a mere 28 more years I'll be 70 years old.

I plan to enjoy these decades to the fullest, if the world wants to join me then that's great! If not, well, it's on them then.

Perhaps that's why freedom is so prevalent these days, becasue more and more people are starting to realize how precious time.... and life is.