NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1781
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am

NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by Coder »

https://nypost.com/2022/11/30/clothing- ... -children/

Somewhat relevant article, lots to unpack, some irrelevant.
Celebrities like Jared Leto and Harry Styles, have pushed gender boundaries in fashion, often appearing on the red carpet in feminine clothing like dresses and skirts.

“Celebrities are actually really helping to push the category forward and just really legitimize it,” Schmidt said. “Especially younger generations, when they see that Brad Pitt wore a skirt to the Bullet Train premiere, that suddenly says, ‘Okay, this is okay. I can wear a skirt too.’
I realize we tend to be negative about celebrities influence, but this analyst seems to think they are influential.
She [Jennifer Sey] argued that there used to be a time when girls could shop in the boys’ section and boys could shop in the girls’ section “without any fanfare or controversy,” but now, “in an attempt to break down gender stereotypes, the gender ideology movement has had the reverse effect, telling girls that if they like to shop in the boys department, there must be something wrong.”
This statement is so false. Yes, women can shop in the men’s section - but the reverse has never been true. She also is mixing up “gender neutral” clothing with gender ideology - frankly I see the two as separate movements, with “gender neutral” saying exactly what she is saying it isn’t saying. From what I see from “gender neutral” companies they generally say “Wear what you want, be yourself”. I find it laughable they come to the conclusion that de-gendering clothing will lead to irreversible surgeries.
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by STEVIE »

"“It’s just unnecessary,” she added. “If you want to break down gender stereotypes, just let girls shop in boys departments and boys shop in girls departments. It shouldn’t be a big deal. We shouldn’t be encouraging children to overthink and overanalyze the way they dress.”"

This last paragraph resonates most strongly with my own experiences and feelings and I actually agree.
The problem is that it is a "big deal", and not just for children.
Steve.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1722
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by pelmut »

STEVIE wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:22 am
... “If you want to break down gender stereotypes, just let girls shop in boys departments and boys shop in girls departments.
If you want to break down gender stereotpes, don't have separate departments.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
ScotL
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 894
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by ScotL »

pelmut wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:25 am

If you want to break down gender stereotpes, don't have separate departments.
Spot on brilliant
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6551
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Contact:

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by moonshadow »

I like how these articles feature different people that punt arguments back and forth...

"LGBT this" "inclusive that" followed by accusations of "wokeness this" and "Marxism that"....

Yet everybody seems to ignore the elephant in the room....

What kids wear is between the kids and their parents.

(**pssst** [whispers] it's none of anyone else's business)

Nobody ever mentions that horrible "F" word.....

FREEDOM!
It's not a big deal unless you make it one.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1781
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by Coder »

moonshadow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:50 am
I like how these articles feature different people that punt arguments back and forth…
They stealthily progressed from “this is the wave of the future, and it’s about clothes” to “OMG surgery”.
moonshadow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:50 am
Nobody ever mentions that horrible "F" word.....

FREEDOM!
Shhhhhhhhh, we don’t use that word!

I found the original Fox Business article, and perused the comments. It took quite a few before Marxism/communism was brought up, which surprised me. There were one or two lone (sane) voices saying, “you believe in capitalism, they’ll go out of business if the market doesn’t like what they are selling” and “something about freedom”. The was one comment I thought quite funny, unfortunately probably true:
My wife and have had gender-neutral clothing shared for years. If she likes something in my closet - usually a shirt - she takes it and I never see it again.
I think the most interesting part of the article was the former Levi’s exec talking about how their sales to women took off once they started making “women’s cuts”. A while back I listened to a YouTube video where the speaker talked about how people search endlessly for “the perfect pair of jeans”, and rather than buy something shapeless and let it wear in/shape to the wearer they want that immediate gratification. You see this sort of thing with Eddie Bauer - they have 3 or 4 different cuts of their jeans, and looking across the jeans landscape there are a million other brands that do the same thing.

Let’s say this is true - that women started buying Levis jeans because they were not just being marketed to women, but because they are made for women - tailored specifically for them. Perhaps that’s the clue. Others and I on this board occasionally decry gender-neutral/unisex clothes because often you end up looking like a sack of potatoes. Some of the more modern brands do a much better job (I was particularly impressed by ClHu, but had to return as their prices were $$$). But we sometimes ask - which kind of skirt would guys start wearing first? I don’t think it has to be denim. I think the marketing has to have a solid message like, “the first skirt tailored for a man”. Even if it’s the same cut as the women’s, make it “male exclusive” and market it as such. Maybe people don’t want gender neutral, but I believe they want choice and more variety.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6551
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Contact:

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:22 pm
There were one or two lone (sane) voices saying, “you believe in capitalism, they’ll go out of business if the market doesn’t like what they are selling” and “something about freedom”.
Some of us have been at this [wearing feminine clothes] longer than businesses have been catering to the whole "gender neutral" thing.

In my region there still aren't any retailers that are embracing "inclusiveness"...

What, oh what prey-tell does a poor soul like me do in this situation....?

I stroll over to the women's section, pick out what I like, pay for it, carry it home... wear it the next day. [Mic drop]

It's not rocket science. Stop asking society for permission to be you... just do it! And f--- anyone that takes an issue with it. Tell 'em to mind their own business.
Coder wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:22 pm
It took quite a few before Marxism/communism was brought up, which surprised me.
I often comment on the question "what does a person's personal choice in clothing have to do with a society's means of production...? Show me where in the Communist Manefesto does it say "men shall be feminine".... I'll wait..."

No reply so far.... still waiting.
It's not a big deal unless you make it one.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5771
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by Sinned »

Actually I find that "women's" jeans/trousers fit me better than the men's. They are generally made from softer, more colourful materials too.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
User avatar
SkirtsDad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 848
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:03 am
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by SkirtsDad »

ScotL wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:30 am
pelmut wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:25 am

If you want to break down gender stereotpes, don't have separate departments.
Spot on brilliant
Like this one: https://badhandwriting.co.uk/collections/dresses
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by STEVIE »

SD
Gods, but I feel so old.
Please explain, mono syllables for preference, what gender stereotypes are broken by the contents of that link.
For what it's worth, this old fart thinks we ascribe way too much importance to the retail industry.
More men would wear skirts if they were held in the men's section, really?
Now we have the premise that gender stereotyping will vanish when there is only a "clothes" department.
Retail display policy does not create stereotypes, society does that without it's help.
What Joe Public bestows, only Joe Public can remove, not your favourite purveyor of sartorial delights.
Steve
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6551
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Contact:

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by moonshadow »

STEVIE wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:25 am
What Joe Public bestows, only Joe Public can remove, not your favourite purveyor of sartorial delights
Another way of saying that consumers decide what retailers sell, not the other way around.

As it should be.
It's not a big deal unless you make it one.
User avatar
Stu
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1138
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:25 am
Location: North Lincolnshire, UK

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by Stu »

As a slight aside on this, there is a large clothing store in my town which, aside from selling high quality menswear items I sometimes purchase, it also supplies school uniforms, especially to the three private schools in the area. Their uniforms are expensive, but very smart as the schools concerned have strict dress codes. A couple of weeks ago, I did a double-take when I saw one of the headless child mannequins for about age 11 was displaying a knife-pleated grey skirt and blazer bearing a badge. The blazer, which is worn by both sexes, had the buttons on the right-hand side - in other words, it was a boy's blazer. The school to which it related is a mixed school and quite posh and conservative, so I am pretty sure this was just a mistake, or else they had run out of the correct sizes of girls' blazers and so they used a boy's blazer expecting nobody would notice. I thought how great it would be if boys had a genuine choice the way girls do, but without having to "identify as trans... (or whatever)". This may happen one day, but I won't hold my breath.
User avatar
SkirtsDad
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 848
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:03 am
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by SkirtsDad »

STEVIE wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:25 am
SD
Gods, but I feel so old.
Please explain, mono syllables for preference, what gender stereotypes are broken by the contents of that link.
Steve
In a response to what Pelmut wrote i.e. "If you want to break down gender stereotpes, don't have separate departments." I gave an example of an online clothing site that doesn't have a men's and women's department. Since you seem to disagree with Pelmut, perhaps you could explain, using as many syllables as you like, why you think degendering clothing shops doesn't break down stereotypes.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 13625
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by crfriend »

SkirtsDad wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:13 pm
[... P]erhaps you could explain, using as many syllables as you like, why you think degendering clothing shops doesn't break down stereotypes.
I'm going to take a cut at this one and it has nothing to do with the female of the species. Quite on the contrary: it's the male of the species that is one heck of a problem in this regard as "they" tend to police themselves hideously effectively -- to the point where long-term friendships can suddenly fly apart with no reason other than surface adornment. It's not just sad, it's bloomin' tragic. and, ideally, it should stop. Will it? Likely not in this old man's lifetime.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1781
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am

Re: NY Post: Clothing brands’ push for gender inclusive clothing ripped as ‘marketing ploy,’ ‘confusing to children’

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am
SkirtsDad wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:13 pm
[... P]erhaps you could explain, using as many syllables as you like, why you think degendering clothing shops doesn't break down stereotypes.
I'm going to take a cut at this one and it has nothing to do with the female of the species. Quite on the contrary: it's the male of the species that is one heck of a problem in this regard as "they" tend to police themselves hideously effectively -- to the point where long-term friendships can suddenly fly apart with no reason other than surface adornment. It's not just sad, it's bloomin' tragic. and, ideally, it should stop. Will it? Likely not in this old man's lifetime.
I’ve received grief from fellow males and never from women* about my clothing/accessories. And I’m not even talking about skirts*. And it isn’t like there were a ton of incidents, but one is enough to set a kid in grade school (me at the time) back and questioning his style. I don’t know where this behavior comes from, if it’s genetics, the “male” brain, or what have you.


*except one family member, and skirts, but that’s a totally unrelated matter
Post Reply