The Sunday Times: David Hockney shows men the art of snappy dressing

[Coder]

https://archive.ph/2GNFF

Original link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davi ... -x2rtkz3mq

I suppose it’s too much to expect the men of Britain to slip on a bit of satin or crêpe de chine every now and then without questioning their masculinity, though young people give me hope. But it is absurd that a colour, a fabric or the shape of a garment should still be so tied to Victorian ideas of propriety and gender. Clothes are for everyone, and there’s no rule that says they have to be boring or staid or funereal. Never mind Harry Styles — if an 85-year-old man in a wheelchair can make the point via his feet alone, so can anyone.

The article isn’t about MIS, but mentions skirted styles and in general, is a reminder that we should all be ourselves. Some other good points in there.

[ScotL]

https://archive.ph/2GNFF

Original link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davi ... -x2rtkz3mq

I suppose it’s too much to expect the men of Britain to slip on a bit of satin or crêpe de chine every now and then without questioning their masculinity, though young people give me hope. But it is absurd that a colour, a fabric or the shape of a garment should still be so tied to Victorian ideas of propriety and gender. Clothes are for everyone, and there’s no rule that says they have to be boring or staid or funereal. Never mind Harry Styles — if an 85-year-old man in a wheelchair can make the point via his feet alone, so can anyone.

The article isn’t about MIS, but mentions skirted styles and in general, is a reminder that we should all be ourselves. Some other good points in there.

Hadn’t thought of gender norms being Victorian ideas. Wonder the truth in that? But it’s the sense you get when you think of the “proper way to dress.”

[Coder]

Hadn’t thought of gender norms being Victorian ideas. Wonder the truth in that? But it’s the sense you get when you think of the “proper way to dress.”

Make drab / the suit come from around the time of the French Revolution, and the Victorian period shortly after. I often see people allude to the Victorian era as a heavy influence on today’s morals and ideas about what being a man/woman is. I don’t know if there is good research backing that up, or if someone said it one time and it stuck.

[ScotL]

Hadn’t thought of gender norms being Victorian ideas. Wonder the truth in that? But it’s the sense you get when you think of the “proper way to dress.”

Make drab / the suit come from around the time of the French Revolution, and the Victorian period shortly after. I often see people allude to the Victorian era as a heavy influence on today’s morals and ideas about what being a man/woman is. I don’t know if there is good research backing that up, or if someone said it one time and it stuck.

I bet you’re correct, probably a great Influence on current social norms.

So why? Why was the Victorian age so important and be able to thrust such myopic standards that persist today?

[Myopic Bookworm]

So why? Why was the Victorian age so important and be able to thrust such myopic standards that persist today?

Perhaps because it saw the widespread establishment of the religious orthodoxies that emerged from the late 18th-century revivals within Protestant Christanity (evangelical, Methodist, etc.), and which mythologized the gender stereotypes of the earlier part of that age. (I dunno, I'm just handwaving.)

[ScotL]

So why? Why was the Victorian age so important and be able to thrust such myopic standards that persist today?

Perhaps because it saw the widespread establishment of the religious orthodoxies that emerged from the late 18th-century revivals within Protestant Christanity (evangelical, Methodist, etc.), and which mythologized the gender stereotypes of the earlier part of that age. (I dunno, I'm just handwaving.)

Thought orthodox religions were around for awhile before the Victorian ages

[Myopic Bookworm]

So why? Why was the Victorian age so important and be able to thrust such myopic standards that persist today?

Perhaps because it saw the widespread establishment of the religious orthodoxies that emerged from the late 18th-century revivals within Protestant Christanity (evangelical, Methodist, etc.), and which mythologized the gender stereotypes of the earlier part of that age. (I dunno, I'm just handwaving.)

Thought orthodox religions were around for awhile before the Victorian ages

Yes, of coure they were: but in the English-speaking countries, post-Reformation Christian orthodoxy had mainly eroded into a fairly gentle conformism (call it "corruption" if you don't like it, call it "tolerance" if you do), until the evangelical revivals - Methodism, Holiness Movement, Great Awakening - whose attitudes became hard-wired into much of society in general during the early to mid Victorian period. In the US you also had the founding of the Latter Day Saints (1830s), the Southern Baptists (1840s), and goodness knows what else.

[Midas]

It looks as if yet another topic has been hijacked by the God botherers.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I don't think wearing skirts bothers God...

[Coder]

I think the discussion was on-topic - unless there is some other secular influence that we are unaware of? Religion shaped - and continues to shape - history and society, hard to escape it.

Anyhow - if you click through on one of the links:

https://archive.ph/H1y7M

You can see the crocs - yellow - I don't find them reminiscent of duck feet as the author alludes to - ducks have orange/blue/grey feet - and he's the only person wearing a plaid suit. Certainly stands out among the others. But the uniformity of the rest of the group is sickening, punctuated by some snappy sock colors.

[ScotL]

It looks as if yet another topic has been hijacked by the God botherers.

Hey Midas, what do you mean by “God botherers”? I’ll wait for your explanation but to my ear this seems to be an offensive comment.

[ScotL]

I think the discussion was on-topic - unless there is some other secular influence that we are unaware of? Religion shaped - and continues to shape - history and society, hard to escape it.

Anyhow - if you click through on one of the links:

https://archive.ph/H1y7M

You can see the crocs - yellow - I don't find them reminiscent of duck feet as the author alludes to - ducks have orange/blue/grey feet - and he's the only person wearing a plaid suit. Certainly stands out among the others. But the uniformity of the rest of the group is sickening, punctuated by some snappy sock colors.

I think someone said it was the French Revolution that got rid of men’s colorful fashions because they reminded the populace too much of noble finery. I’m ok without nobles but we all lost when this happened. Life’s better in color

[STEVIE]

The French Revolution may have been responsible for many things, but male drab is not one of them.
Men, and here, I stress, Men allowed that to happen all by themselves.
Men have allowed fashions and social norms to develop the straitjacket that passes for menswear today.
If we don't reclaim our freedom to dress as we choose, then that will be our own fault too.
Forget the history, forget the Bible, live life in the here and now, is that not what it is for after all.
Steve.

[rode_kater]

It's interesting to follow the evolution of the suit. Looks like the colour vanished around the beginning of the Victorian period.

The weirdest part is that this style was exported to the rest of the world. Why on earth would people in Japan start wearing western business suits?

[STEVIE]

Why on earth would people in Japan start wearing western business suits?

Another question, the numbers of people who are effectively fluent in two languages, their own and English second?
The answers to both are primarily the same, early British influence, the empire and all that stuff. More recently, the growth in American influence around the world.
Once upon a time people did believe "West is Best".
Some Japanese traditional menswear is frankly stunning in terms of design and colour.
Pity that the influence could not be reversed.
Steve.