The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:12 pm
moonshadow wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:53 pm Will it effect males that express themselves in manners that many folks consider feminine? Possibly. But honestly I give it about a 15% probability, and it won't effect every state. Some states will be worse than others. I expect Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia (the ruling that says you can't be fired for wearing a skirt) will likely be overturned. Among other setbacks. Once that is overturned (and it will be), various states will do exactly like they did with the overturned of Roe-v-Wade and begin to pass various laws almost commanding the discrimination of LGBTQ people, and unfortunately this will include cis-gendered skirt wearing men.
Is there legislation out there right now? I guess there would be pushback if it was exceptionally broad - if I had any say I'd sneak in a provision prohibiting women from wearing pants. I know - "but coder, pants are designed and sold for women". Fine - maybe that would be the time to break out a line of feminine men's clothing, and market it heavily to that or those states. Run hilariously corny commercials on YouTube (see True Classic, squatty potty, poopurri commercials) in those states. I dunno. I'm not quite as pessimistic as you, possibly because I'm in a blue state/area, possibly because I understand concerns over drag although I don't see why it would have to be legislated away. There are already laws on the books that protect kids, parents can vote out school board members if they make choices they are unhappy with, and if there's an event at a public library - shocker - don't attend or let your kids attend.
To be fair, I have yet to see a bill that directly targets cis-gender men who like to wear skirts, crossdressers, or even transgender women who dress in ways publicly acceptable to their [cis-gender] female counterparts. The rhetoric thus far seems aimed primarily at drag shows. However left wing pundits are sounding the alarms that the conservatives of the land won't stop there. I can't deny that I am keeping an eye on it. We were also told in 2016 that "Roe-v-Wade is the law of the land" and is otherwise safe. While I don't personally have a dog in that fight, I've also learned to not trust what political extremist promise.

One thing that many blue state members on this website may not realize is that among the great unwashed, there is little social difference between men in skirts, transgender women, crossdressers, and sometimes even drag queens. To the far right religious community we are just a bunch of homo queers that need to stay the hell away form children. I live among these people, and occasionally I hear the banter while I'm working in various establishments, while I'm wearing normal work clothes, I'm basically incognito, and oh how the banter flies...

Make no mistake, many of these people think we're mentally deranged, and I believe would gladly execute us all if they thought they could get away with it. Many of these people hold little to no value on our lives, the lives of trans women, crossdressers, etc. To them we are nothing more than a disgusting waste of air. And these people are actively electing politicians to local, state, and federal seats hell bent on making life as difficult as possible to any poor soul that doesn't CONFORM to the traditional Judea-Christian American way of life.

Believe me, I just emancipated myself from a family that chants "death to all baby killing, liberal, sissy, faggot, men in dresses" at every gathering. Their rhetoric posted online to a swarm of "likes" "hearts" and other positive feedback.

I'm not trying to sound like Chicken Little here.. this is just the stuff I hear out on the streets. They don't want freedom, they want control. They want YOU to abide their every moral whim.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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Good luck Moon, you are brave to be doing what you do where you do it.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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ScotL wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:32 amGood luck Moon, you are brave to be doing what you do where you do it.
Moon's got a few tricks in that bag he carries, and amongst those, one of the most powerful is the understanding that the most vocal ones in opposition tend to be cowards at the core. Things work quite differently in meatspace than they do on the Internet, and one thing that's possible in meatspace is to physically punch someone who is causing you grief. In Moon's area there's also the undercurrent that you never know who might be carrying a sidearm; this tends to keep things polite.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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moonshadow wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:53 pm This is one of the reasons I generally support a "base capitalist" economy and generally shy away from the idea of pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support. Do I support universal healthcare? Yes, but I don't think the whole damned economy should be under public ownership.
This is such a strawman though. No, many millennials do not wants a USSR style socialism. This is just an artifact of the complete misunderstanding of the word socialism in America. Not even China does USSR style socialism. If you ask the millenials:
American millennials and Generation Z are much more supportive of socialist politics and economic redistribution than prior generations.[1] Some American millennials, born between 1981 and 1996, support policies that would widen social safety nets and provide relief for student debt and health care costs.[2] In multiple late 2010s polls, young Americans viewed socialism positively and had a far less favorable view of capitalism than their forebears.[3][4][5] According to a 2021 Axios poll, 49% of Americans aged 18 to 34 viewed capitalism positively, compared to 58% in 2019.[
Wikipedia

This is what is more usually referred to as social democracy which is something else entirely. The millennials grew up with internet and see the low heathcare costs and cheap education in Europe. The visit and see how people can't be fired on a whim and that the system will actually support you when you get struck down. And they go home and wonder why they can't also have that. And while I missed out on being a millenial, I understand their point of view: you cannot expect the youth to support capitalism if the system is set up to prevent them from accumulating capital. Not that Europe necessarily does much better at that, but it's significantly more comfortable for the majority of people.

It doesn't help that US can just barely be considered to have a representative democracy.
moonshadow wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:53 pm But regardless, all we can do is just keep on keeping on, try to survive the best we can, and continue to play the game.
But why? It is the prerogative of the youth to change the game. They have the least to lose.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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rode_kater wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:20 pmIt is the prerogative of the youth to change the game. They have the least to lose.
On the contrary -- the youth have by far and away the most to lose in this. They have their entire futures.

I gave up hope on the USA back in the early 1980s when the future course became apparent, and could find nowhere worthwhile to emigrate to -- and I tried. No other country wanted emigrants from the USA.

Do I have faith in the youngsters? Not really, as they have not achieved wisdom yet. But, they're the best hope we've got because my generation (and the one of my parents) and the one after are abjectly bankrupt given the system we labour under -- which is most certainly NOT a republic run by democratic principles.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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rode_kater wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:20 pm No, many millennials do not wants a USSR style socialism. This is just an artifact of the complete misunderstanding of the word socialism in America. Not even China does USSR style socialism.
Well, it is what it is. May the odds be in their favor.

I got 40 more years tops, and after that, I ain't really worried about it. :wink:

By the way....
This is one of the reasons I generally support a "base capitalist" economy and generally shy away from the idea of pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support. Do I support universal healthcare? Yes, but I don't think the whole damned economy should be under public ownership.
This is such a strawman though.
How is my comment a "straw man"?

I ask with all due respect. I've been accused of this before, but I don't really understand what it means.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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The answer to this thread is to just wear a skirt. No one is a pure capitalist and no one is a pure socialist. They don’t exist. We all exist on a spectrum and in the end, should just wear a skirt. Sound good guys?
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:08 am
rode_kater wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:20 pm No, many millennials do not wants a USSR style socialism. This is just an artifact of the complete misunderstanding of the word socialism in America. Not even China does USSR style socialism.
Well, it is what it is. May the odds be in their favor.

I got 40 more years tops, and after that, I ain't really worried about it. :wink:

By the way....
This is one of the reasons I generally support a "base capitalist" economy and generally shy away from the idea of pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support. Do I support universal healthcare? Yes, but I don't think the whole damned economy should be under public ownership.
This is such a strawman though.
How is my comment a "straw man"?

I ask with all due respect. I've been accused of this before, but I don't really understand what it means.

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

That's what the definition of strawman means.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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Elisabetta wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:25 am A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.
Oh. Not sure how my comment did that but okay.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

Post by ScotL »

moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:35 am
Elisabetta wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:25 am A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.
Oh. Not sure how my comment did that but okay.
Your comment didn’t. So what skirt you wear today?
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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ScotL wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:17 am So what skirt you wear today?
No photo taken today of the skirt, but it was a long floor length black floral with a matching black top... you know.. because it's "Black Friday" and all...

Below Liz shoots a photograph of me waiting for our Pizza and Pies and Pints, Feyetteville West Virginia....

Note the cool "poltergeist streak".... :mrgreen:
ms_wv.jpg
Two compliments were received today, both by the same lady. She loved the glasses and the dress!
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:08 am How is my comment a "straw man"?

I ask with all due respect. I've been accused of this before, but I don't really understand what it means.
I know it's off-topic, but just to answer this: a strawman is where someone else's argument is distorted to make it easier to argue against. So in this case it's the millenials that would like cheaper health and education, amongst other things. It's kind of hard to argue against that. So instead a strawman is created:
... pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support.
and then argued against
If the entire U.S. means of production was publicly owned, then all I would take is an authoritarian regime to rise to the top, ban anything they deem as "inappropriate" and BAM, men in skirts is illegal across the land.
And now you have basically discredited all the wishes of millenials without actual having to argue any of the actual points.

I'm pretty sure you didn't make this one up yourself. It's so damn common it's practically a trope at this point. It's just really tiring when every time you want to discuss how to make healthcare spending more effective you have to defend yourself against accusations you want to turn the country into a "pure USSR style socialist state".

Anyway, back to the usual skirting talk.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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rode_kater wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:54 pm I know it's off-topic, but just to answer this: a strawman is where someone else's argument is distorted to make it easier to argue against. So in this case it's the millenials that would like cheaper health and education, amongst other things. It's kind of hard to argue against that. So instead a strawman is created:
First, thank you for your respectful response, I took no offense to it, nor your original comment about the "strawman". I honestly wasn't sure what it meant, even after looking it up, it seemed to go over my head. My daughter and I had a brief discussion about it last night where we both tried to pipe out exactly what the phrase means.

Anyway, I'd like for you to take a good hard look at my comment as it was written exactly...

"...generally shy away from the idea of pure [U.S.S.R] style socialism that many millennials and gen z'ers support. Do I support universal healthcare? Yes, but I don't think the whole damned economy should be under public ownership. "

Note the word "many". Nowhere in my statement did I paint "millennials and gen z'ers" as predominantly supportive of socialism. I used the word "many". And you, in kind also used the word "many" in your response...

"No, many millennials do not wants a USSR style socialism. This is just an artifact of the complete misunderstanding of the word socialism in America. Not even China does USSR style socialism."

Now we come down to a place of what I've observed vs what you've observed. By your own quote from Wikipedia, it can be said that as roughly 49% of people between 18 and 40 view capitalism favorably. Which NO, of course doesn't meant that the other 51% support U.S.S.R style socialism, but it should be noted that what the U.S.S.R was was about as close to Marxist socialism as any nation has ever come. Of course no modern industrialized country is 100% this or that, all are a blend of various economic policies, some more socialist/capitalist than the other. In the U.S. there is a surprising amount of "socialism" baked into our system in places where many would not realize it. But by and large, the root of our system is one of private ownership and a privatized means of production. But even within that privatized ownership, there are still "communal" guidelines that must be followed. For example, for the time being, I live in a mortgaged house, so at the moment, the bank has say on what I can and can not do with my house, granted the bank will probably never check on provided I'm making my payments on time, but it is what it is.

Now when the house is paid for and I get a clear title and deed for it, I now "own" the house. But do I really? Well, technically, and I continue to pay taxes on the real estate despite "owning it". Also there are restrictions and government guidelines on what I can do with the property. Now I'm not trying to sound all "sovereign citizen" like, I understand why these rules exist. It keeps me from turning my home into a landfill, or a used car lot, or a grocery store. These rules are in place for a reason, and many of them have come into place for various reasons over the last 250 years.

Anyway, I digress....

Back to millennials: I think what this comes down to is how many is "many". Because the fact is that there is a percentage of people between 18 and 40 that do support communism (U.S.S.R. style socialism) and there is a percentage in that same age group that don't. So what it comes down to is what percentage would qualify as "many"?

My daughter and I discussed it last night and we concluded that "many" would likely be taken in most context as "more than a few, but less than most".

So I ran a quick Google search on the number of people 18-40 in the U.S. that support pure socialism. Obviously there would be some margin for error and bias depending on the one doing the polling. But my results ranged anywhere from 20%-45%. For the sake of argument, I ran with the conservative number of 20%. Then I looked up the total population of gen z and gen y, and I came up with a rough number of around 140,000,000. 20% of that number is roughly the same as the population of Texas.

Frankly, once the numbers were crunched, it was "more than a few, less than most"... But in point of fact, many gen z and gen y people I've spoken to do support pure communism (the end game of true socialism, per Carl Marx's manifesto). And no, I'm not talking about just wiping off student loan debt and adopting a Canadian style health system, these kids I've spoken with have done their research, the know what socialism actually is (complete public ownership of the means of production) and yes... they support it.

If I had to throw out a number of the number of folks between 18 and 40 that I've had the chance to actually discuss the matter with, I'd say roughly two out of ten support it... or... 20%, which is roughly the number that corresponds with various polls. There are even "many" self professed communist (yes, they actually used the word to describe their political leanings) right here in Appalachia and in Russell County. To be fair it's likely not 20% of the population, but it's still more than I would have thought.

Also, consider that organized labor (unions) are indeed socialist in nature. Organized labor has almost unanimous support among political Democrats, but it's a somewhat unique quirk of society that a good number of Republican (voters) also support organized labor, and no, that's NOT a "strawman", just look at the political map of Appalachia. It is predominately red (Republican), and yet still, this area has a general favorable view on unions. I should know... I live here.

Anyway, to conclude, I disagree that my statement of "many millennials and gen z'ers support socialism" is a "strawman fallacy" as it can be demonstrated through polls and actual conversation that there is indeed a percentage of this age group that do [support complete socialism]. This percentage is... "more than a few, but less than most"... or... "many".

I'd also like to point out, that by your own statement, it could be argued that you yourself invoked a "strawman" into the discussion, using the exact same terminology. You seemed to assume that I implied that all millennials and gen z'ers support socialism. I take no slight or offense at this, as I realize that you probably didn't even realize you read my comment incorrectly. Such as it is in our modern world of political bantering and bickering. We often hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest. I am guilty of this too. I think we all are.

On a side note, I personally dislike the whole "strawman" thing. I've seen it thrown around a lot, and every time I see it used, it seems to be a tool used to shut down discussion. Maybe the "strawman" is being used a lot in political discussions, but when one side does invoke a "strawman" into their argument, and the other side calls it out, it seems like the one calling it out takes the superior stance in the argument while the other just feels like an idiot.

Nobody is a perfect debater, but when we use phrases intended to criticize the delivery of a message, rather than trying to dig deeper and try to understand where the other guy is coming from, then we build walls and we become more divided as a result. Let us stop assuming the worst in everyone. When someone says something, and we feel a slight from it, or we just feel they're wrong, let us put ourselves in the shoes of the other before we dismiss the opinion all together.

Bonus note:

Despite what many may assume from my writings, I do not hold a negative view of socialism, communism, capitalism, or even fascism. They are all just model theories for the operation of a society's economy and power structure. Each one can succeed or fail. None are "good" or "bad", they are just machines that function in certain ways. Communism could work if everyone would play along and do their part, but ultimately, the human brain just isn't wired up in that way. Based on the quirks and vices of human nature, capitalism is probably the most reasonable path forward, and it could be argued is largely responsible for the massive amount of social and economical progress over the last 500 years. Is it perfect? Hell no. It's got LOADS of problems, but again, based on human nature, we seem to thrive most of a system that rewards persistent individual dedication, and so far capitalism seems to be economic machine best aligns with human nature.

No capitalism isn't perfect, but neither is the human species. If we were perfect then communism would work. And maybe someday our brains will evolve to a point where communism would work. But I don't think we're anywhere near that place at this time. Maybe in a few thousand years.

I think Carl Marx was a brilliant man, but I just don't think human brain in its current state of evolution can really achieve his idea, and that's okay, we will progress, slowly but surely.
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:35 am
ScotL wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:17 am So what skirt you wear today?
No photo taken today of the skirt, but it was a long floor length black floral with a matching black top... you know.. because it's "Black Friday" and all...

Below Liz shoots a photograph of me waiting for our Pizza and Pies and Pints, Feyetteville West Virginia....

Note the cool "poltergeist streak".... :mrgreen:

ms_wv.jpg

Two compliments were received today, both by the same lady. She loved the glasses and the dress!
Love that part of the US. Used to fish the appalachians. Gorgeous woods and streams. Caught many a brook trout there.

The compliments really adds the icing to the cake for wearing a skirt. If/when it becomes accepted, I’ll miss the spontaneous and ebullient praise I get for wearing one. Even if my skirts are so far mostly kilts
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Re: The Guardian Nigeria: Masculinity And The Skirt Wave

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:27 pm No capitalism isn't perfect, but neither is the human species. If we were perfect then communism would work.
I have caused consternation in the past by pointing out that full-on communism is the ideal Christian form of society, but does rather require everyone to be a virtuous Christian first: see Acts 2:44 "all those having believed were together the same, and having all things in common", Acts 4:32,35 "No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they owned ... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold ... and it was distributed to each as any had need."
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