Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Dust
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by Dust »

The two main negative points as I read it were:

1. It's a sexual fetish. Mostly due to the heels and the tight fit of the skirts or their short length. Some of it was claimed to be "unprofessional" but that was likely his non-work stuff.

2. He (apparently in the article) claimed that the shirt and tie were masculine but the skirts and heels were gender neutral. This was called out as BS, essentially.

Please note that this was on an explicitly feminist forum. A lot of the women posting were of the "is never wear that so why would he" mindset towards the heels especially. Even a lot of women who don't call themselves feminists have this attitude.

On the first point, I think there were many who couldn't get their heads around why else a man might wear something traditionally feminine, especially if it is slightly impractical. The idea it might be fun was completely missed. Plus, this group is heavy on the "sexual is bad" mindset, because "that's how The Patriarchy (TM) controls/oppresses the women!"

I get where they are coming from on the second point. Honestly, I think it society is close to only having gender neutral things, and feminine ones. Men have nothing for themselves, except ties.

The thread is eye opening. Worth skimming to get a feel for some of the mindsets we sometimes go up against.
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moonshadow
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by moonshadow »

Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:22 am
The thread is eye opening. Worth skimming to get a feel for some of the mindsets we sometimes go up against.
Well, they are welcome to their opinions, but the right to swing their fist ends at the tip of my nose.
It's not a big deal unless you make it one.
Coder
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:22 am
I get where they are coming from on the second point. Honestly, I think it society is close to only having gender neutral things, and feminine ones. Men have nothing for themselves, except ties.
I voluntarily give up ties, FYI.

As for the second point, the attention paid seemed kind of silly, I'll use the phrase "tilting at windmills". However, I struggle with tops to a point that's ridiculous. There just isn't a good "male" reference for combining skirts with tops, at least in a casual sense. T-shirts will only get you so far, not a fan of button up shirts, and women's typical proportions don't really work well on the male frame. That leaves us with the regular guy shirt options if your arms/shoulders are broad. I'm not sure what they expected - him to wear fitted shirts? Frills and lace? If he had, they'd find issues with those choices.
Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:22 am
The thread is eye opening. Worth skimming to get a feel for some of the mindsets we sometimes go up against.
Yep
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:22 am
The thread is eye opening. Worth skimming to get a feel for some of the mindsets we sometimes go up against.
Mumsnet is generally recognised as the breeding ground for a lot of the anti-trans (and anti-men) hatred we see in the media.  Beware!
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:08 am
T-shirts will only get you so far, not a fan of button up shirts, and women's typical proportions don't really work well on the male frame.
Almost every shirt I own is a "womens" shirt, including the non tee shirt varieties.
Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:08 am
If he had, they'd find issues with those choices.
Honestly, somebody would have taken issue with him no matter what he wore... even if he was wearing plain men's clothes, he'd just be another patriarchal jerk.. He exist... just like the rest of us.. thats his fault.
pelmut wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:27 am
Mumsnet is generally recognised as the breeding ground for a lot of the anti-trans
I noticed that too... several comments to "stay out if womens spaces"..

I hope they have the same sentiment about trans-men staying out of men's spaces!

If I'm expected to enter a men's restroom while wearing a dress (and don't get me wrong, I don't mind this), then I expect those with a vagina to stay the hell on their side too!

Fair is fair, and thay goes for sports as well.

I recently say a news article that was singing the praises of a girl that was playing on a men's high school football team in South Carolina... conservative pundits were praising her name!

That's not fair! If a boy were playing on a girl's team all hell would break loose!

God I hate people sometimes! The double standards and flat out hypocrisy is just so irritating!

Everyone either stays in their own lane or we don't! Why is it girls can do whatever they want and get away with it but not boys?
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by Dust »

Someone did correct their understanding of what he said on criticism number 2 on page 14:
As to "non-gendered": I agree that that is questionable. But here's what he actually says:

"I am old enough to remember that in school, the girls could not wear pants. Pants have now become a non-gendered article of clothing. So why can't skirts and heels be non-gendered? Besides, men wore heels before women did. Maybe not today’s stiletto-style heels, but men did wear heels before women."

It seems he is saying that he wishes heels and skirts were non-gendered, not that they actually are. Because, of course, that's not true.
These folks mixed up "why can't they be" and read it as "I think they are" which is a huge difference. And it took till page 14 of posts...
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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moonshadow wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 am
Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:08 am
T-shirts will only get you so far, not a fan of button up shirts, and women's typical proportions don't really work well on the male frame.
Almost every shirt I own is a "womens" shirt, including the non tee shirt varieties.
Same, but I am tall, long arms so have to make concessions - long sleeves are always too short, my torso is very long and if a shirt doesn’t have stretch the shoulder proportions often mean I need a larger size which means the overall body of the shirt ends up being too big. I mean… these complaints aren’t really male-specific - but I find it a bit annoying to get a shirt only to find the waist is 10 times too big, but the shoulders fit. Or there’s extra fabric above that puffs out. I have found one brand that, so far, is pretty consistent and fits well.
Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:20 pm
These folks mixed up "why can't they be" and read it as "I think they are" which is a huge difference. And it took till page 14 of posts...
That bugged me a lot, actually.

I also found fault with the last posting - the difference between Mark and the 20-something year old is vast. A more tolerant culture, a parent that supports you - it really changes how one approaches the world.

One other point - they kept harping on the photos, no one acknowledged that these were staged in the photographic sense - these were not real world photos, but essentially a fashion shoot. No pose in a fashion shoot or from a social media influencer will look natural. To some degree I think they are intentionally provocative - if someone followed Mark around for a few days I’d suspect there would be a softer edge to the images, more natural facial expressions. Not that would matter to the lot of them, perhaps a few.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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moonshadow wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 am
I recently say a news article that was singing the praises of a girl that was playing on a men's high school football team in South Carolina... conservative pundits were praising her name!

That's not fair! If a boy were playing on a girl's team all hell would break loose!

God I hate people sometimes! The double standards and flat out hypocrisy is just so irritating!

Everyone either stays in their own lane or we don't! Why is it girls can do whatever they want and get away with it but not boys?
Why read the news? This is why I avoid it like the plague (my only news searches are for fashion-related articles).

But yeah, hypocrisy. If a single trans woman poses a threat to women on a soccer team (for example) and if their concerns are for the safety of the women players, how does letting a single woman playing on a team of men jive with the prior concerns? Some would say - in the first case the women have no choice but to play with the trans woman, and the trans woman is forcing themselves on the players, being bigger/stronger (on average). In the second case, the woman voluntarily puts herself in harms way. But this ignores any sense of consistency, and for that it frustrates me.

Ultimately though, it’s another example of how masculinity/femininity are seen in the eyes of the world, which is kind of funny. Men are both looked upon and treated like dirt, yet at the same time people want a piece of the pie. Men do something women do and they are looked at as suspect. Women do the same, and are lauded. I personally don’t want praise/attention, but I am sick and tired of this stupidity. I think the double-standard has caused a lot of psychological grief to both men and women, and it’s a shame.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:19 pm
Why read the news? This is why I avoid it like the plague (my only news searches are for fashion-related articles).

But yeah, hypocrisy. If a single trans woman poses a threat to women on a soccer team (for example) and if their concerns are for the safety of the women players, how does letting a single woman playing on a team of men jive with the prior concerns? Some would say - in the first case the women have no choice but to play with the trans woman, and the trans woman is forcing themselves on the players, being bigger/stronger (on average). In the second case, the woman voluntarily puts herself in harms way. But this ignores any sense of consistency, and for that it frustrates me.
I believe the real reason for these fears are simply prejudice against people with male anatomy that are feminine [woman] gender (a.k.a. transgender women).

In any event I almost hesitate to rant about the female ball player as thr article was generally glowing and positive, and I'm actually genuinely happy for her. I don't blame her for the fact that she can take advantage of a situation and roll with it.

I blame the hypocrites that huff and puff when a trans-woman, or even just a cis-gender man does the exact same thing.

That article would have a completely different tone and reaction if that were a trans-woman playing on either team...

Why? Becasue trans-women are not allowed to exist... period. They are viewed as the scum of the earth, worse that child see predators, they are the people everyone loves to hate, don't even deserve to breathe the same air as others...

And I stand with trans-women everyday, and am very open about that sentiment.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by GoSkirtGo »

In the case of sports, there's a double standard because there are biological factors in play (as opposed to a mere social construct as is the case with fashion for example). Those biological factors involve what testosterone does to one's body, namely giving one a physical advantage over those who have never had male levels of the hormone in their body. The whole notion of women's sports is to give them leagues they can compete in exclusive of those with androgenized bodies. The converse - a woman playing on a man's team - does not undermine the integrity of the team in the same way, hence the different treatment.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by rivegauche »

I have thought about this issue of trans women athletes. At first I agreed that their presence in women's sport would be unfair, but then I just relaxed about it. Sport is unfair in terms of genes anyway. I can't compete realistically in athletics because my legs are too short. I can't compete realistically in weight lifting because I am too weak. All these long-legged and muscly guys have an unfair genetic advantage on me. All sport is genetically biased - sex at birth is just one more aspect of this.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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GoSkirtGo wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:16 pm
In the case of sports, there's a double standard because there are biological factors in play (as opposed to a mere social construct as is the case with fashion for example). Those biological factors involve what testosterone does to one's body, namely giving one a physical advantage over those who have never had male levels of the hormone in their body. The whole notion of women's sports is to give them leagues they can compete in exclusive of those with androgenized bodies. The converse - a woman playing on a man's team - does not undermine the integrity of the team in the same way, hence the different treatment.
The problem is that everyone comes in different shapes and sizes. Sex has nothing to do with it. This young girl being able to compete with male football players proves it.

I never played a lot of sports when I was growing up, but when a simple informal game of this or that would spring up, I was never chosen to play with the boys because was basically a weakling of a kid. I recall a few times the girls let me play with them...

I couldn't do that today... no sir! We've got people to divide, issues to wedge, and politicians to elect!

I've been in one physical fight in my life... and it was with a girl... and I got my ass beat.

That stuff about girls being weak is utter nonsense.

I'm also curious about what your thoughts would be on a little femboy that wants to be a cheerleader?

I'm not talking about a jock here... we know the boys I'm talking about... the ones that are 90lbs soaking wet, the emo kids, the "geeks"... you know...

And let's just assume he's gay just to eliminate any charge of him groping a cheerleader.... we all know those girls don't have what he wants...

What about him?
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

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moonshadow wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:56 pm
I'm not talking about a jock here... we know the boys I'm talking about... the ones that are 90lbs soaking wet, the emo kids, the "geeks"... you know...
Yo, wiseguy! You're talking to one of those right here -- a classic "geek". Electronics and computers were what I breathed and lived in High School, in addition to playing in the band (clarinet and later oboe for the curious, although I originally wanted to take up flute which was summarily shot down by my father as "too girly").

It paid off reasonably well. I've had a good run in the computing field for many years although it's gone completely toxic now having been taken over by empty suits with no ethics whatsoever and deathly-boring hardware that all looks and behaves the same. I'm hoping to retire soon, or just get the Hell out and do something different for a couple of years.

Don't let the naysayers and those who happen to be "bigger than you are" push you around.
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:43 pm
Yo, wiseguy! You're talking to one of those right here -- a classic "geek".
Alright big man... put your money where your mouth is....

...let's see a yearbook photo! :twisted: :wink:

We'll see who's a "geek". :mrgreen:
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Re: Icon-Icon: The men’s fashion trends for spring-summer 2023

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:12 am
Alright big man... put your money where your mouth is....

...let's see a yearbook photo! :twisted: :wink:

We'll see who's a "geek". :mrgreen:
OK, wiseguy. I just have to find it -- and I know the shot I'm lookin' for, too. This may take a few days, especially if it needs referring back to the hardcopy.

I'm always up for an honest challenge.
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