NYT: Who Wears Crop Tops to the Office?

[Coder]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/02/styl ... ffice.html

https://archive.ph/OnzBh

This article has nothing to do with MIS - but it is interesting because it is a great conversation starter for something that’s been bouncing around in my head for a year now. If you can load the NYT link, peruse the comments as they are worth reading.

My quick opinion - she works in social media, at a plastic surgery office - her clothes are work-appropriate for the industry. It does call into question of sexism, would we be so accepting of women who don’t fit the ideal image of a woman wearing revealing clothes? But those are questions for a different forum.

To my point: we want greater fashion freedom for men - skirts and whatnot. Is there a “line” that shouldn’t be crossed? What forms of clothes should not be allowed, and what does it mean to be “office appropriate”? A simple answer - we should have access to the same things women have, equality, full stop. Ok - but then since we are expanding men’s allowed forms of expressions, will anything else change? Will our adoption of skirts cause a breakdown in society where - horror of horrors - anything goes (slight amount of sarcasm here)?

[rode_kater]

I remember a comment somewhere a long time ago that stuck: where "we" draw the line is so long as we don't see any hair.

Referring to things like shaved armpits/legs on women for example. A guy in a croptop might not faze people, but the fact you see a hairy belly-button underneath brings out the pitchforks. Guys get a bit more of a pass here though with respect to arms/legs/armpits/etc... Though "standard male work clothes" hide all the hair.

[Sinned]

Office wear - I was once pulled up for wearing a shirt and jumper to a big inter-bank project meeting once, instead of a shirt and tie. Admittedly it was with the biggest UK bank but even so I thought it unwarranted especially as a jumper was my normal office wear. A skirt would have probably caused an attack of the vapours then. I know that that was over 20 years ago but there obviously a lot if unstated rules then and I infringed one.

[STEVIE]

I know that that was over 20 years ago but there obviously a lot if unstated rules then and I infringed one.

There still are Sinned and they trump pretty much everything else.
Ok I wear a skirt, but the dress code says the length must be "reasonable".
The line manager decides on the definition and if you are not in favour, life can get "interesting"
In general, though there is actually little real discrimination clothes wise in my work.
Guys if they have a mind could wear skirts, I prove that. The fact that they don't is down to the tacit disapproval of their peers.
That silent and insidious faction is the real discriminator.
Before anyone states it again, whether the negativity is factual or imagined is quite irrelevant.
Steve.
PS Crop tops are banned as are shorts and leggings. These apply across the board, gender unspecified.

[Coder]

Guys if they have a mind could wear skirts, I prove that. The fact that they don't is down to the tacit disapproval of their peers.
That silent and insidious faction is the real discriminator.
Before anyone states it again, whether the negativity is factual or imagined is quite irrelevant.
Steve.
PS Crop tops are banned as are shorts and leggings. These apply across the board, gender unspecified.

I've never really looked into it, but I'm pretty sure anything would "go" where I work, but peer pressure keeps people in check. There's an expectation of professional work attire - and probably something in the employee handbook that specifically states some platitudes. But no dress code. Some dress up, others dress down.

But I am serious about the question - we are advocating for a loosening of restrictions on men - is it simple parity? Do other standards break down? Can you just alter one thing without the whole system crashing down?

[STEVIE]

Can you just alter one thing without the whole system crashing down?

Let's examine "parity" first.
I have been taken to task for wearing a skirt that was too short and I know that some females have been too, so we have equality.
That broke down for me when it was added that "someone" saw my underwear. That someone was a female. Had I made the same comment as a male, the same comments would have been treated very differently. Therein, lies the discrimination.
Whether any skirt is "too" short or not is simply a matter of opinion because my employer is too wishy washy about aspects of the dress code to give a definition of what is acceptable.
Now in the microcosm of my own office, the "system" is functioning as well as can be expected and I daresay the wider world would adjust accordingly too.
Skirts, dresses and whatever for anybody, why not. Perhaps the "system" just needs a major overhaul, complete rebuild is a whole different matter and won't happen anytime soon anyway.
Meantime I will chip away in the best style that I can.
Steve.

[denimini]

I've never really looked into it, but I'm pretty sure anything would "go" where I work, but peer pressure keeps people in check. There's an expectation of professional work attire - and probably something in the employee handbook that specifically states some platitudes. But no dress code. Some dress up, others dress down.

I guess the keyword is "appropriate". Many years ago when I was an industrial design student at a Technical College. The dress code was that it was to be appropriate for the disipline we were studying. Plumbers wore overalls, accountants wore suits and as my course was part of an arts course, we could wear whatever we liked, as a mark of creative expression.

But I am serious about the question - we are advocating for a loosening of restrictions on men - is it simple parity? Do other standards break down? Can you just alter one thing without the whole system crashing down?

I can't imagine freedom of clothing choice leading to social collapse, although some may describe it as such.

[ScotL]

But I am serious about the question - we are advocating for a loosening of restrictions on men - is it simple parity? Do other standards break down? Can you just alter one thing without the whole system crashing down?

I can't imagine freedom of clothing choice leading to social collapse, although some may describe it as such.

The Romans wore “skirts”, look what happened to them. Haha! Throughout history men have worn various clothing styles and civilizations have risen and fallen and the clothing choice and effect on civilization has nothing to do with each other. If it was only that easy to make or break a civilization!

To me, the notion that a guy wearing a skirt as a guy will jeopardize all of society as we know it is fear mongering hyperbole suggested by individuals who lack self esteem to realize their worth comes from within, not the costume society dictates.

(FYI: this diatribe is aimed at no one in this forum. To have the guts to wear what you want regardless of societal pressure shows a strength of character the naysayers secretly wish they had)

[Coder]

To me, the notion that a guy wearing a skirt as a guy will jeopardize all of society as we know it is fear mongering hyperbole suggested by individuals who lack self esteem to realize their worth comes from within, not the costume society dictates.

(FYI: this diatribe is aimed at no one in this forum. To have the guts to wear what you want regardless of societal pressure shows a strength of character the naysayers secretly wish they had)

For sure - and these aren't my thoughts. I'm asking because I was asked this a long time ago by someone, and didn't have an answer. It's been bugging me for quite some time. Essentially, "If you start wearing skirts, what next? Where do you stop? Society has rules, and when we start breaking them chaos happens.". A variation of the spousal question, essentially. It doesn't disturb me as far as what wearing skirts will "do" to society - rather my concerns are more about answering the question with some certainty.

My current answer is a question - "Did women wearing pants ruin society?" as it's the only analogy I could think of in modern times.

[crfriend]

My current answer is a question - "Did women wearing pants ruin society?" as it's the only analogy I could think of in modern times.

Not directly, but there were effects:

• It took away the last vestige of male-only apparel men had access to
• It gave the reactionaries a lot of grist for their "mill"
• Seriously butched up the female population

... and I'm sure I could come up with a few more. The first one, incidentally, may actually be the most profound and ultimately damaging -- especially to the male psyche. Wiseguy cracks of, "Who wears the pants in that family" no longer have any meaning in the modern context, and at more than a trivial distance it's sometimes very difficult to tell whether someone approaching is a man of a very butch woman. Human sexual dimorphism still works in our favour as males are typically physically larger than the females, but confusion can still sometimes result. Now that there's nothing really left as a signifier for men, we found ourselves without part of our identity, and the ones who grasp that probably don't much like it.

Will wearing a skirt change your core character? The answer here is a flat, "No" unless there are other forces in action. "Will it make you homosexual?" Again, "No", unless you were that way to begin with. "What else will it do to me?" Simple, it'll likely make you stand up a bit straighter and hold yourself slightly better. It'll also help to remind you to lift with your legs and not your back, which is something I find handy. "Will it make me experiment with other aspects?" If you're curious or adventurous, then likely "Yes" -- but it's not going to change your basic orientation. You'll wind up learning about colours and how to deploy them, you'll learn about fabrics that are vastly nicer than the ubiquitous denim. You might wind up experimenting with different shoes; I found that women's styles are usually more comfortable than men's styles, and an extra inch in stature never hurt anybody.

[ScotL]

To me, the notion that a guy wearing a skirt as a guy will jeopardize all of society as we know it is fear mongering hyperbole suggested by individuals who lack self esteem to realize their worth comes from within, not the costume society dictates.

(FYI: this diatribe is aimed at no one in this forum. To have the guts to wear what you want regardless of societal pressure shows a strength of character the naysayers secretly wish they had)

For sure - and these aren't my thoughts. I'm asking because I was asked this a long time ago by someone, and didn't have an answer. It's been bugging me for quite some time. Essentially, "If you start wearing skirts, what next? Where do you stop? Society has rules, and when we start breaking them chaos happens.". A variation of the spousal question, essentially. It doesn't disturb me as far as what wearing skirts will "do" to society - rather my concerns are more about answering the question with some certainty.

My current answer is a question - "Did women wearing pants ruin society?" as it's the only analogy I could think of in modern times.

Sure society has rules but the rules that will ruin society are things like “thou shalt not kill” and “don’t eat your babies.” Breaking those rules and society’s a mess. Men wearing skirts won’t be a gateway to breaking these rules or any rules for that matter that will bring down a civilization. Anyone who thinks clothing selection begets societal ruin is bat crap crazy.