The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Coder
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The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Coder »

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/ ... n-clothes/

Did someone from here write this article? I'm not too keen on mixing the trans issue into the debate, but a lot of what the writer wrote is solid otherwise. I would encourage people to leave comments.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

Very interesting and thoughtful article.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Coder »

To add: I don't think some of the people leaving comments understood what the author wrote. The author was advocating de-gendering and de-stygmatyzing clothes, albeit there was a trans bent.
I then made the rather obvious point that they were telling me they would never wear a skirt while, in fact, wearing a skirt, albeit one that we choose to call a kilt.

Until we move on from this kind of attitude it’s going to be hard to progress on the issue of gender and sex, and I mean everyone here: men, women, Eddie, me, everyone. We got over ourselves long ago about what women can and do wear – they can wear anything – but the problematic attitudes about what men can and do wear still linger. I know this because of how I feel about the child-me dressing up in the 70s. I know it because of men in skirts saying they would never wear skirts. And I know it because of comedians or anyone else thinking high heels are in some ways linked solely to women rather than men.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

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If you cannot read the article (subscription) disable JavaScript for the site. 12ft.io doesn't work.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

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Coder wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:10 pm To add: I don't think some of the people leaving comments understood what the author wrote. The author was advocating de-gendering and de-stygmatyzing clothes, albeit there was a trans bent.
I then made the rather obvious point that they were telling me they would never wear a skirt while, in fact, wearing a skirt, albeit one that we choose to call a kilt.

Until we move on from this kind of attitude it’s going to be hard to progress on the issue of gender and sex, and I mean everyone here: men, women, Eddie, me, everyone. We got over ourselves long ago about what women can and do wear – they can wear anything – but the problematic attitudes about what men can and do wear still linger. I know this because of how I feel about the child-me dressing up in the 70s. I know it because of men in skirts saying they would never wear skirts. And I know it because of comedians or anyone else thinking high heels are in some ways linked solely to women rather than men.
Kilted men dare not be associated with MIS :roll: even though it is in effect a multi coloured pleated wrap skirt. There used to be quite a few kilted members on this forum years ago, who since moved on to other sites after the name changed from Tom's Café (I rarely see much activity in the kilt pages :blue: ). Highland wear and its adherants take their sartorial dress very seriously (and will joke of Kilt Police if an outfit doesn't look quite right).

The issue many still have, including Eddie herself is skirt=girl, hence Izzard's transition, years since he would clearly be dressed as a man ìn a skirt on his comedy shows. (Using he/him for Izzard's former self)

I saw another skirted man today in London on Farringdon Road, grey circle skirt to his calf, looked confident wherever he was heading. Few people gave us second glances (I was in a Zara denim pencil skirt), as the fears are more in our heads. Attitudes may have softened, but apart from celebrities making a statement, sightings are still few and far between, those who do (on Instagram) usually have lots of pictures, yet are rarely seen on the streets :roll:
Formerly Kilty / Joe Public etc...
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

As I didn't want a paid subscription to The Herald, which is required in order to post comments, I emailed the writer direct, and mentioned this forum. He replied saying, among other things:

"Do you have members in Scotland and do you think that they might be willing to speak to me for a feature for The Herald? As you can tell from my column, I am sympathetic and supportive on the issue."

I will send him the address of the Skirt Cafe, but if any of the Scottish skirt-wearers among you is interested in talking to him, I can pass you his direct email (or you can find him through the Herald website, as I did).
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Big and Bashful »

Hi, I suppose that as an Englishman who has lived in Scotland for forty odd years and who occasionally wears a kilt but mostly skirts I would like to chat with that there person, could you message me their email?
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by STEVIE »

Great article actually and from an Aberdonian too.
I have sent an e-mail to the guy, let's see what comes back.
This is not about the "Kilt/Skirt" conundrum so let us just drop that right now.
It is about attitudes to menswear and how they have caused us to get boxed into an ever-decreasing space.
Clothes are only one part, the very definition of man, male, masculine is in a state of flux in a way never before seen.
B&B, perhaps we could arrange a meet with Mr Smith if he is interested and anyone else who'd be interested too.
Steve.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by rode_kater »

Somebody helpfully archived it already, in case you run into a paywall: https://archive.ph/dl3eZ

And indeed a very thoughtful article.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

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STEVIE wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:31 am Great article actually and from an Aberdonian too.
I have sent an e-mail to the guy, let's see what comes back.
This is not about the "Kilt/Skirt" conundrum so let us just drop that right now.
It is about attitudes to menswear and how they have caused us to get boxed into an ever-decreasing space.
Clothes are only one part, the very definition of man, male, masculine is in a state of flux in a way never before seen.
B&B, perhaps we could arrange a meet with Mr Smith if he is interested and anyone else who'd be interested too.
Steve.
Sounds like a good excuse for a day out! since I finish work in mid December.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by STEVIE »

Who needs an excuse, and the soft drinks could be on him too.
No reply as yet but I will keep you informed.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Stu »

Eddie Izzard is not wearing skirts and dresses in spite of being male. Eddie Izzard is wearing skirts and dresses expressly to signify that he wants to be considered female.

In doing so, he is not challenging gender norms in terms of dress. Quite the reverse: he is actually bolstering the associations between being female and the wearing of skirts and dresses. He is confirming that he is not cis-gendered and we can see that by his adoption of clothes which we are supposed to recognise as exclusively feminine.

This doesn't help us.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Coder »

Stu wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:23 pm Eddie Izzard is not wearing skirts and dresses in spite of being male. Eddie Izzard is wearing skirts and dresses expressly to signify that he wants to be considered female.

In doing so, he is not challenging gender norms in terms of dress. Quite the reverse: he is actually bolstering the associations between being female and the wearing of skirts and dresses. He is confirming that he is not cis-gendered and we can see that by his adoption of clothes which we are supposed to recognise as exclusively feminine.

This doesn't help us.
Thing is, that was only a recent change. I'm not a big fan of Eddie - but at least before he was more about performance art / style than gender ideology. And I think the authors article can be understood from a style perspective, specifically the part I quoted and others as well. And in fact went out to point out it was a shame how Eddies looked at clothes:
The controversy around Eddie also took on an extra, interesting edge in recent days when an old interview re-emerged on social media. In it, Eddie talks about switching between “boy mode” and “girl mode” and when the interviewer asks how this is done, Eddie suggests one way is by changing shoes i.e. high heels equals girl mode and flats equals boy mode.

Some women have reacted angrily to this idea – there’s more to being a woman than wearing high heels, they say – and not only is this a fair reaction, it seems to me that more of us should be talking about the strange way in which we, women and men, continue to behave around clothes and shoes. Sadly, confusingly, the attitudes I started to pick up when I was seven or eight in the 70s are still around, possibly as strong as ever.
I think having an open dialogue with the author - and it seems a few here may be having one - is a good way to help engage with the issues surrounding male clothing choices (and lack thereof). I just don't think we can totally escape gender connotations at the moment - as much as we want to brush it aside.

Maybe I don't have the proper "historical" context surrounding Eddie - I always assumed he was a flamboyant (in clothes) performer and that was part of hist schtick.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by rivegauche »

I think Eddie stopped being an asset to our cause when he became she. There was an article in The Times on Saturday (paywall I am afraid and I only have a print version) by Janice Turner called "There is more to womanhood than high heels". I agree. It is people who have gender not clothes and by beginning with this approach and moving to being trans, Eddie has confused the issue and might even be giving the impression that once you start wearing skirts you end up believing you are a woman. It is the fulfilment of the old joke "what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman?" Answer - "About two years".
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Coder »

rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pm I think Eddie stopped being an asset to our cause when he became she.
Agreed!
rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pmThere was an article in The Times on Saturday (paywall I am afraid and I only have a print version) by Janice Turner called "There is more to womanhood than high heels". I agree. It is people who have gender not clothes and by beginning with this approach and moving to being trans, Eddie has confused the issue and might even be giving the impression that once you start wearing skirts you end up believing you are a woman. It is the fulfilment of the old joke "what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman?" Answer - "About two years".
Article link: https://archive.ph/cqOkw

And yeah - that joke has haunted me since the first time I read it, but I think it comes from a sad understanding of clothes, and frankly a childlike mentality grownups bring with them into adulthood.
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