The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:45 pm
rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pm I think Eddie stopped being an asset to our cause when he became she.
Agreed!
rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pmThere was an article in The Times on Saturday (paywall I am afraid and I only have a print version) by Janice Turner called "There is more to womanhood than high heels". I agree. It is people who have gender not clothes and by beginning with this approach and moving to being trans, Eddie has confused the issue and might even be giving the impression that once you start wearing skirts you end up believing you are a woman. It is the fulfilment of the old joke "what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman?" Answer - "About two years".
Article link: https://archive.ph/cqOkw

And yeah - that joke has haunted me since the first time I read it, but I think it comes from a sad understanding of clothes, and frankly a childlike mentality grownups bring with them into adulthood.
I have a feeling that if you asked most people “do you think men want to wear skirts” or “do you think men would be comfortable in skirts”, the response would be “what?”

I don’t think men wearing skirts is on most peoples mind. So it’s a concept they’ve never broached before.

Eddie’s not our asset anymore not because she’s a trans woman but because she’s supposed to wear skirts. Celebrities donning a skirt are great because now Joe Q Public has had to think of a man wearing a skirt
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by STEVIE »

"Until we move on from this kind of attitude it’s going to be hard to progress on the issue of gender and sex, and I mean everyone here: men, women, Eddie, me, everyone. We got over ourselves long ago about what women can and do wear – they can wear anything – but the problematic attitudes about what men can and do wear still linger. I know this because of how I feel about the child-me dressing up in the 70s. I know it because of men in skirts saying they would never wear skirts. And I know it because of comedians or anyone else thinking high heels are in some ways linked solely to women rather than men."

As far as I am concerned celebrities in skirts are neither asset nor liability to our cause, they just are.
There certainly does not appear to have been any great surge for in the man in the street going skirted despite the plethora of the great and so-called good doing so.
In fact, I'd suggest that those of us who lead our mostly mundane lives while skirted may be having a damn sight more influence than all the Pitts and Izzards et al put together.
Sure, every guy has to decide about wearing whatever at an individual level but let's be really clear on one aspect.
Women did not gain all their freedom with men's approbation; they took it for themselves regardless.
The problematic attitudes will disappear only when men make it so and it only when we can do it for ourselves.
Nobody is going to do this for us and there is nothing to be gained by expecting it either.
Me personally, I'll be quite proud to talk to this reporter because I was that child too but just a decade earlier.
Nobody can ever know just how many of us there were nor how many are having the same thoughts, doubts and problems today.
Sadly, the fact that we are still discussing it rather proves the point.
Steve.
PS one of MY new dresses arrived yesterday and it's a keeper. I just need the right occasion and venue for showing it off.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by crfriend »

Steve, Please check your PM inbox.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by STEVIE »

crfriend wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:17 pm Steve, Please check your PM inbox.
Thanks Carl and I have made a direct reply too.
Just to let everyone else know that I seem to have sparked some interest from Mark Smith the journalist who wrote the piece.
Let us just regard it as a wee acorn and see how it may grow in the future.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by TSH »

Coder wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:10 pm To add: I don't think some of the people leaving comments understood what the author wrote. The author was advocating de-gendering and de-stygmatyzing clothes, albeit there was a trans bent.
I then made the rather obvious point that they were telling me they would never wear a skirt while, in fact, wearing a skirt, albeit one that we choose to call a kilt.

Until we move on from this kind of attitude it’s going to be hard to progress on the issue of gender and sex, and I mean everyone here: men, women, Eddie, me, everyone. We got over ourselves long ago about what women can and do wear – they can wear anything – but the problematic attitudes about what men can and do wear still linger. I know this because of how I feel about the child-me dressing up in the 70s. I know it because of men in skirts saying they would never wear skirts. And I know it because of comedians or anyone else thinking high heels are in some ways linked solely to women rather than men.
This quote is what prompt me to post on this thread, because it's almost accurately on point, but the author makes this small flaw that somewhat undermines the point. We didn't really get over women wearing whatever they want. Sure, women can wear just about all articles of clothing, but look at how dress codes are imposed upon women. Women aren't completely void of clothing restrictions — society is just more subtle about it.
Coder wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:45 pm
rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pm I think Eddie stopped being an asset to our cause when he became she.
Agreed!
rivegauche wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:09 pmThere was an article in The Times on Saturday (paywall I am afraid and I only have a print version) by Janice Turner called "There is more to womanhood than high heels". I agree. It is people who have gender not clothes and by beginning with this approach and moving to being trans, Eddie has confused the issue and might even be giving the impression that once you start wearing skirts you end up believing you are a woman. It is the fulfilment of the old joke "what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman?" Answer - "About two years".
Article link: https://archive.ph/cqOkw

And yeah - that joke has haunted me since the first time I read it, but I think it comes from a sad understanding of clothes, and frankly a childlike mentality grownups bring with them into adulthood.
"Childish" would be a more apt description; "child-like" implies that this mindset is anything but something humanity should've outgrew a long time ago, but hasn't.

As for Eddie Izzard: I'd say I have a vague idea about this person at best, because I'm not sure if I've ever heard of him (or "her") in my life. Even if I knew who s/he was, I'd never place my faith (if I had any) on another person. People often disappoint.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Coder »

TSH wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:30 am This quote is what prompt me to post on this thread, because it's almost accurately on point, but the author makes this small flaw that somewhat undermines the point. We didn't really get over women wearing whatever they want. Sure, women can wear just about all articles of clothing, but look at how dress codes are imposed upon women. Women aren't completely void of clothing restrictions — society is just more subtle about it.
Yeah, it's easy to forget that women have restrictions - but if variety is the spice of life, they sure have a lot of spice (ok, that's even way too corny for me to say with a straight face). The thing is, there will always be restrictions. Society will always have rules - written and unwritten - surrounding what people are allowed to wear. As an example, while most of us are for greater fashion freedom, we would feel uncomfortable about someone dressed up as a clown when going about their business in town. There has to be a line unless we decide "anything and everything" and you start seeing people dressed up as superheroes walking around in their daily lives. I realize that's silly... but where do you draw the line? I ask this with every ounce of sincerity - in a discussion I had with my mom a while back she asked me that question and I couldn't answer. Do I stop at skirts? Adopt heels? Makeup? Jewelry? I know the answer to most of those (no), but when opening the floodgates of anything goes, what stops other people from running wild? Is that an issue? How would you take someone seriously who wears something silly like a clown outfit?

The way I see it - if a woman works in the office she has to meet other women's approval, and deal with sexism depending on the person (I originally wrote "man", but women can be sexist to other women as well by holding to sexist sterotypes). Those two things shape what she chooses to wear (let's ignore dress codes at the moment because that adds another layer and gets applied to both sexes). But within that framework she can pick from a near-infinite catalogue in how to express herself. Sure - a tube top may not be work-appropriate, or a sequined skirt (depends) - but there are still variations on those things that won't leave her wanting for choice. In public - women have even greater freedom. Certain combinations of clothes can get them called nasty names - I don't think I need to enumerate those names here. But again, for every "inappropriate combination" with some slight alterations that look can be made a bit more acceptable in societies eyes, or they can say "shove it, I'm wearing what I want" and quite often they do. You hear complaints about how they are treated (verbally) but women still continue to dress in ways that people (negatively/inappropriately) respond to - which means they are ignoring restrictions society puts on them.

Men, on the other hand, are expected to dress in a very restrictive box, and the minute you stray outside that box significant questions arise about your: mental state, sexuality, stability, competency (women may face some of these as well, but not at the same detriment to their careers). Due to how society rears men, we don't discuss clothes amongst ourselves except in the context of high end shoes, sneakers, and suits. There just isn't an outlet for men who are into creative dressing. You cannot change how people see you - so the issue is us becoming comfortable with ourselves and saying "screw what society says, I'm going to wear a skirt".

Look - I'm not about grievances, so don't take this as a "woe is us/men" reply. We have to be the change that we want to see in the world, even if we are a fraction of a fraction of society. And it has gotten better over the years - significant progress has been made in acceptance, but we still have a ways to go.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:14 am "Until we move on from this kind of attitude it’s going to be hard to progress on the issue of gender and sex, and I mean everyone here: men, women, Eddie, me, everyone. We got over ourselves long ago about what women can and do wear – they can wear anything – but the problematic attitudes about what men can and do wear still linger. I know this because of how I feel about the child-me dressing up in the 70s. I know it because of men in skirts saying they would never wear skirts. And I know it because of comedians or anyone else thinking high heels are in some ways linked solely to women rather than men."

As far as I am concerned celebrities in skirts are neither asset nor liability to our cause, they just are.
There certainly does not appear to have been any great surge for in the man in the street going skirted despite the plethora of the great and so-called good doing so.
In fact, I'd suggest that those of us who lead our mostly mundane lives while skirted may be having a damn sight more influence than all the Pitts and Izzards et al put together.
Sure, every guy has to decide about wearing whatever at an individual level but let's be really clear on one aspect.
Women did not gain all their freedom with men's approbation; they took it for themselves regardless.
The problematic attitudes will disappear only when men make it so and it only when we can do it for ourselves.
Nobody is going to do this for us and there is nothing to be gained by expecting it either.
Me personally, I'll be quite proud to talk to this reporter because I was that child too but just a decade earlier.
Nobody can ever know just how many of us there were nor how many are having the same thoughts, doubts and problems today.
Sadly, the fact that we are still discussing it rather proves the point.
Steve.
PS one of MY new dresses arrived yesterday and it's a keeper. I just need the right occasion and venue for showing it off.
Throwing my hat in the ring and picking here on Coder's comments as well as Stevie.

I know Eddie has come out as trans and many say he's no use to Men in Skirts but just for coining the phrase "they are not woman's clothes, they are my clothes" he will forever be a hero to me.

Are we not about freedom to dress as we choose? Then let Eddie be free to be himself man or woman it's his choice, none of mine or anyone else's business. The fact he wears woman's clothes should be unimportant. They are his choices. Again freedom of choice. Maybe he is not an advocate for men in skirts anymore, ok to that. Maybe he never was, unless he has deserted the Skirtcafe and no longer posts?

I don't really care how people go shopping. They could go dressed as spiderman in heels. I think spider man is quite camp, so spider man in heels would be hilarious. Heaven knows we have enough to be sad about.

Where do we draw the line? keep it family friendly would perhaps work.

Stevie, Can we see a photo of the new dress? I just bought the skirt below. My daughter said yuk. Oh well too late, it's in the post. I think a bit of red in my life will be fun. Now I must get out of these trousers and slip into something more comfy :) btw I'm wearing trousers as I still cant face the school playground and an old woman at the calor gas exchange gave me sneering looks. I'm such a coward.
Capture.JPG
and I bought this for my daughter (I hope she likes it)
Capture.JPG
PS I have also emailed Mark Smith
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by crfriend »

Barleymower wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:35 pm I'm such a coward.
Like Hell. That second one is positively superb. I'd wear that in a heartbeat!

I might ping Mr. Smith as well, but I'm on the wrong side of an ocean for Scotland.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Barleymower »

crfriend wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:58 pm
Barleymower wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:35 pm I'm such a coward.
Like Hell. That second one is positively superb. I'd wear that in a heartbeat!

I might ping Mr. Smith as well, but I'm on the wrong side of an ocean for Scotland.

I think it's beautiful too. Unfortunately It's uk size 6 :( sad times
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:56 am
TSH wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:30 am This quote is what prompt me to post on this thread, because it's almost accurately on point, but the author makes this small flaw that somewhat undermines the point. We didn't really get over women wearing whatever they want. Sure, women can wear just about all articles of clothing, but look at how dress codes are imposed upon women. Women aren't completely void of clothing restrictions — society is just more subtle about it.
Yeah, it's easy to forget that women have restrictions - but if variety is the spice of life, they sure have a lot of spice (ok, that's even way too corny for me to say with a straight face). The thing is, there will always be restrictions. Society will always have rules - written and unwritten - surrounding what people are allowed to wear. As an example, while most of us are for greater fashion freedom, we would feel uncomfortable about someone dressed up as a clown when going about their business in town. There has to be a line unless we decide "anything and everything" and you start seeing people dressed up as superheroes walking around in their daily lives. I realize that's silly... but where do you draw the line? I ask this with every ounce of sincerity - in a discussion I had with my mom a while back she asked me that question and I couldn't answer. Do I stop at skirts? Adopt heels? Makeup? Jewelry? I know the answer to most of those (no), but when opening the floodgates of anything goes, what stops other people from running wild? Is that an issue? How would you take someone seriously who wears something silly like a clown outfit?

The way I see it - if a woman works in the office she has to meet other women's approval, and deal with sexism depending on the person (I originally wrote "man", but women can be sexist to other women as well by holding to sexist sterotypes). Those two things shape what she chooses to wear (let's ignore dress codes at the moment because that adds another layer and gets applied to both sexes). But within that framework she can pick from a near-infinite catalogue in how to express herself. Sure - a tube top may not be work-appropriate, or a sequined skirt (depends) - but there are still variations on those things that won't leave her wanting for choice. In public - women have even greater freedom. Certain combinations of clothes can get them called nasty names - I don't think I need to enumerate those names here. But again, for every "inappropriate combination" with some slight alterations that look can be made a bit more acceptable in societies eyes, or they can say "shove it, I'm wearing what I want" and quite often they do. You hear complaints about how they are treated (verbally) but women still continue to dress in ways that people (negatively/inappropriately) respond to - which means they are ignoring restrictions society puts on them.

Men, on the other hand, are expected to dress in a very restrictive box, and the minute you stray outside that box significant questions arise about your: mental state, sexuality, stability, competency (women may face some of these as well, but not at the same detriment to their careers). Due to how society rears men, we don't discuss clothes amongst ourselves except in the context of high end shoes, sneakers, and suits. There just isn't an outlet for men who are into creative dressing. You cannot change how people see you - so the issue is us becoming comfortable with ourselves and saying "screw what society says, I'm going to wear a skirt".

Look - I'm not about grievances, so don't take this as a "woe is us/men" reply. We have to be the change that we want to see in the world, even if we are a fraction of a fraction of society. And it has gotten better over the years - significant progress has been made in acceptance, but we still have a ways to go.
Women do put up with a helluva lot more than men do, I couldn’t agree more. Between risk of sexual assault, can’t walk outside at night they same as a guy, verbal harassment, sexism (sure from both) and you don’t typically see politicians getting judged by their clothes unless they’re female. To say otherwise comes off tone deaf. They do carry a greater burden than us “not accepted if we wear a skirt”.

But I hope it’s improving for women. Just like I hope it’s improving for us. Celebrity wearing has open many to the fact that guys can wear skirts and do. Relaxation of the gender norms for dress has occurred partly due to the effect of the trans movement/non-binary folks. I see a lot of hope that I can wear a skirt and be accepted even if I don’t adopt the “screw them, I’m dressing for myself”

Where does it end? Who knows. It’s a good comparison about the clown. If you went in to see your doctor and they were dressed as a clown outside of Halloween, you’d find a new doc. But if a clown costume were comfortable or more functional, you might have second thoughts. Or not.

It’s interesting your mom asked where it stops for you. Is she concerned about you possibly transitioning or just curious. I’m sure she didn’t expect her little boy to say this to her. I’ve never heard you mention anything about a spouse or SO so I wonder if she’s worried about you finding someone cause to moms, that means her son is happy. Moms are amazing cause all they typically do is love us and look out for what’s best for us
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Kirbstone »

I dare say none of our contributors here are UK size 6 or anywhere near. Wearing such a coloured skirt would indeed be fun, but it would be folly in the extreme to approach a childrens' playground so attired, methinks.

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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by STEVIE »

Drum roll, we have a very positive reply from Mark Smith.
I have put that out in the get togethers as he is talking about a follow-up with photos too.
It isn't one dress but two, Barleymower, I never go for half measures.
Both are from Roman Originals and the red grey black one is a very early favourite and I hope a party frock.
The other, more work a day but still eye catching enough for my purposes.
"Real" pictures will follow in due course as selfies just ain't my thang!
Kirbstone's comment really only amplifies that strange "attitude".
Anyone, male, female and apparently normal or otherwise who visits a kids playground has the potential to be harbouring bad intentions.
But we digress, please check the "Glasgow Herald" thread in get togethers, this WILL happen!
As for Eddie, she can eat her heart out when I strut my stuff in the glad rags.
Steve
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Barleymower »

Kirbstone wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:05 am I dare say none of our contributors here are UK size 6 or anywhere near. Wearing such a coloured skirt would indeed be fun, but it would be folly in the extreme to approach a childrens' playground so attired, methinks.

Tom
Tom, it's a gift for my daughter, she is size 6, I'm a 16.
She will also look way better in it than me.
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Re: The Herald: Eddie Izzard and our strange attitudes on men and clothes

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:43 am Drum roll, we have a very positive reply from Mark Smith.
I have put that out in the get togethers as he is talking about a follow-up with photos too.
It isn't one dress but two, Barleymower, I never go for half measures.
Both are from Roman Originals and the red grey black one is a very early favourite and I hope a party frock.
The other, more work a day but still eye catching enough for my purposes.
"Real" pictures will follow in due course as selfies just ain't my thang!
Kirbstone's comment really only amplifies that strange "attitude".
Anyone, male, female and apparently normal or otherwise who visits a kids playground has the potential to be harbouring bad intentions.
But we digress, please check the "Glasgow Herald" thread in get togethers, this WILL happen!
As for Eddie, she can eat her heart out when I strut my stuff in the glad rags.
Steve
Change of wording form my original post. There was no need to use feminine adjectives.
They are both top tier dresses Stevie. The first is very fetching. Great stuff.
The second is a classy comfy number. Both are good choices. I look forward to the photos
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