CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Coder »

Excellent segment

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/dr ... cindy-hsu/

They talk about men in skirts, a little history (enough to get people thinking).

Here's a YouTube link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_oaoADZBo
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Coder »

I don't have time today to find the original segment on the show, but it would be interesting to see how it aired. Also, not sure how popular this kind of show is or if she holds any influence on people.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by moonshadow »

Good to have positive feedback, but I'm starting to hear more and more commentators allow that "men starting wearing pants because of the industrial revolution"...

My understanding is this just isn't true. Men have even wearing trousers for most of the common era, and some cultures have been wearing them longer. Trousers are even mentioned in the old Testament, which spans back at least 1500 years B.C.

It's like they're trying to say "men wore skirts until the 1800s and then POOF... trouser tyranny....

It's just not true.

Most men haven't work skirts in well over a 1500 years.

Sorry, it is what it is.

But that's okay, we don't need history (or lack there of) to set precedent.... we're free today... enjoy it!
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Coder »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:12 am Good to have positive feedback, but I'm starting to hear more and more commentators allow that "men starting wearing pants because of the industrial revolution"...

My understanding is this just isn't true. Men have even wearing trousers for most of the common era, and some cultures have been wearing them longer. Trousers are even mentioned in the old Testament, which spans back at least 1500 years B.C.
Good catch, missed that! Probably should have put "history" in quotes. Pants have been with us much longer - and I think they are thinking of when men switched from bright/cheery clothes to drab suits and a singular male uniform ("The great male renunciation"). I think tunics were still a thing up to the industrial revolution, though I don't know enough about what the common man wore as compared to royalty/the wealthy class.

There's a very "boring" read I'm trying to get through - the book that coined this term - I hope to finish so I can post that chapter because it makes thing so clear (although there are some laughably outdated concepts, so ymmv). I got a chuckle too when she said "it wasn't until a few years ago women could wear a tie". Ummmmm, I think they've been wearing ties (and they can have them) for several decades.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Coder »

Wow, just rewatched. That was really bad - who did their research for them? Were they reading some random web page? Did they mix it up with women gaining the freedom to wear pants when working in factories? Anyhow, moderately embarrassed as it shows my obvious lack of comprehension.
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by moonshadow »

Don't feel too bad... I just re-read my comment and am ashamed of all the "auto-corrupts" I missed...

Anyway, it's nice to have positive press, but I believe we would gain more if they focused on facts.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Coder »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:27 am Anyway, it's nice to have positive press, but I believe we would gain more if they focused on facts.
I wish I knew what the problem was. Is it bad subject matter experts? Do they say "research this story" and it gets passed down to a lazy intern (sorry interns!) who googles and picks the wrong source? Are people just making stuff up?

Unfortunately - and this isn't to be dismissive of your point or the general public, but I get the sense people don't care about truth and facts. Certainly some of us do and angst for the truth - but the more layers that get pulled back around me - the more I think people just want news that validates their own personal worldview. The danger is if the facts are easily verifiable, people might feel lied to or cheated.

There's a mischievous part of me that wants to edit the men's skirts wikipedia entry and use this video as a footnote. "Men stopped wearing skirts at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution". (just kidding)
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by ScotL »

I think a big problem of these dates associated with when men and women started doing anything is there typically wasn’t a royal decree that demanded it to mark the date.

I’m sure it didn’t happen overnight. There can’t be a truthful statement that says on October 11, all men stopped wearing skirts.

And even when there are dates, things in real life didn’t magically change. After the US civil war, people from the South who lost the war didn’t just give up. There were many skirmishes after the official end of the war.

And who exactly cares? Many factors went into why clothing choices changed. Listing one as “the” cause is as erroneous as it is correct. In other words, one event was not solely responsible but did contribute to it. Even if a pundit misrepresented the timing, the message is great.

What I love about the segment is they mention the same thing I’ve heard here. Women changed their clothing choices so why can’t men.
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by ScotL »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:12 am
Most men haven't work skirts in well over a 1500 years.
Not trying to challenge you, just this phrase caught me off guard. I’m just ignorant to the clothing styles from the year 500 on throughout the world. It was my understanding that robes, tunics, hose and the myriad of names for unbifurcated bottoms were common globally. Existed with pants. But like I said, I could use a history lesson.
Barleymower
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:28 pm

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Barleymower »

Don't knock it. There's more than enough rubbish on the Web. If it's positive let it ride! :D
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by moonshadow »

ScotL wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:05 am
moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:12 am
Most men haven't work worn skirts in well over a 1500 years.
Not trying to challenge you, just this phrase caught me off guard. I’m just ignorant to the clothing styles from the year 500 on throughout the world. It was my understanding that robes, tunics, hose and the myriad of names for unbifurcated bottoms were common globally. Existed with pants. But like I said, I could use a history lesson.
My understanding is that they did exist, and all throughout history men did indeed wear various skirt like garments. The kilt being among the most popular.

But I don't think skirts can fairly be considered part of the common male peasant attire through the middle ages. The imagery I see of them depicts them mostly in tunics over trousers.

I think some men did wear skirt like garments, but it wasn't common.

The jist I get from commentary like what's mentioned in the video would have one believe that men wearing skirts prior to the industrial revolution was very common. The statement just doesn't seem to hold water.

I don't think there is any bad intent.... they're just what I call "fishing stories"... :wink:

You know.. like that big fish I caught that one summer where there were no witnesses and I released it back into the wild....

I tells ya it's true!
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:21 pmMy understanding is that they did exist, and all throughout history men did indeed wear various skirt like garments. The kilt being among the most popular.

But I don't think skirts can fairly be considered part of the common male peasant attire through the middle ages. The imagery I see of them depicts them mostly in tunics over trousers.

I think some men did wear skirt like garments, but it wasn't common.
In dealing with antiquity -- and in particular deep antiquity -- it is worth recalling that our technology shapes our lives and what we look like. Nothing could be more true than technology affecting what we look like, and how we clothe ourselves today.

So, the question of, "Did men wear "skirts" in antiquity we've got to be very careful. First, did modern skirts, or even their equivalents even exist at the time, and the answer must be in the negative because we lacked the technology to produce garments that fit the body very well. For instance, scissors before 1500 were rare things; worse, needles -- especially those used by the lower classes (read, "pretty much everybody") could well have been made from bone. Everybody thinks of The Kilt being ancient; it's not. The modern Kilt is a product of the Victorian era, as is much of the "lore" that surrounds it. Thus, the question becomes, "Were skirt- (or dress-) like garments worn by men?" The answer to that would almost certainly be "Yes", especially if we contemplate the tunic or the robe. And we do have strong evidence of such garments in the Albanian/Greek fustanella and in the Roman toga.

Did trousers exist in antiquity? Yes, we have ample evidence that horsemen wore them -- "Barbarians" as they were known to the Romans.

Contemplate the difficulty in producing a pair of trousers in the ancient world. Unless they were a valuable tool, the complexity and work involved to produce them would not have been worth it. A pair of trousers to one who spends much time atop a horse, they're a boon; to someone on foot, not so much, and therefore not likely to be made.

The death-knell -- the "Great Masculine Renunciation" -- was brought about by a variety of factors, which have been touched upon in literature, but the final blow seems to have been the French Revolution after which the wearing of "fancy costume" by men fell heavily out of favour due to political pressures, and things for men haven't gotten any better since. We now have the most extraordinary capability to produce wonderful and beautiful clothing, but fail to do so because of obsolete ideals. Even the women of today are dumbing things down severely in costume terms leading us to the vast wasteland of shredded denim and "athleisure".

I only fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

To repeat a quip I made a few weeks back: "Renounce the Renunciation!"
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by ScotL »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:21 pm
ScotL wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:05 am
moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:12 am
Most men haven't work worn skirts in well over a 1500 years.
Not trying to challenge you, just this phrase caught me off guard. I’m just ignorant to the clothing styles from the year 500 on throughout the world. It was my understanding that robes, tunics, hose and the myriad of names for unbifurcated bottoms were common globally. Existed with pants. But like I said, I could use a history lesson.
My understanding is that they did exist, and all throughout history men did indeed wear various skirt like garments. The kilt being among the most popular.

But I don't think skirts can fairly be considered part of the common male peasant attire through the middle ages. The imagery I see of them depicts them mostly in tunics over trousers.

I think some men did wear skirt like garments, but it wasn't common.

The jist I get from commentary like what's mentioned in the video would have one believe that men wearing skirts prior to the industrial revolution was very common. The statement just doesn't seem to hold water.

I don't think there is any bad intent.... they're just what I call "fishing stories"... :wink:

You know.. like that big fish I caught that one summer where there were no witnesses and I released it back into the wild....

I tells ya it's true!
Good point. Skirts, or at least what we call skirts today, unlikely. But a more dress like phenomenon like a tunic or robe, likely. I have a feeling the loin cloth and variations that were more covered was also a common site. But I guess if we dumb this down to bifurcated versus unbifurcated, unbifurcated was popular. The depictions I see from Middle Ages was they wore a tunic over hose, what we may think of as tights.
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by rode_kater »

crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:56 pm Did trousers exist in antiquity? Yes, we have ample evidence that horsemen wore them -- "Barbarians" as they were known to the Romans.

Contemplate the difficulty in producing a pair of trousers in the ancient world. Unless they were a valuable tool, the complexity and work involved to produce them would not have been worth it. A pair of trousers to one who spends much time atop a horse, they're a boon; to someone on foot, not so much, and therefore not likely to be made.
This agrees with a history of garments I read some time back: garment making is a technology that also needed technological advancements. The sewing machine was only invented 1809. Before that, making something like trousers that that sturdy enough for daily wear was a challenge and quite expensive. They also require more material than a plain tunic. So you sometimes didn't get a trouser-like garment until you stopped growing because it's was too expensive to make new ones every year.

There's some interesting info on the history of breeching, the age at which boys where first given breeches to wear.
User avatar
Uncle Al
Moderator
Posts: 3861
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:07 pm
Location: Duncanville, TX USA

Re: CBS New York: Drew Barrymore stops by CBS2 to share "Drew's News" with Cindy Hsu

Post by Uncle Al »

moonshadow wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:27 amAnyway, it's nice to have positive press, but I believe we would gain more if they focused on facts.
To me, some of these "researchers" wouldn't know a "Fact" if it bit them in the behind.
The level of education has been 'dumbed-down' for so long, it is producing ignorant people.
Ignorant in respect to what I grew up with and what is now called ''Education". :(

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-202 ? (and the beat goes on ;) )
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
Post Reply