Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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Jim
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

Post by Jim »

I think it appropriate to try to understand the objections of others, even if they are based on a religious approach that differs from our own. Understanding does not mean agreeing.
crfriend wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:15 am If Deuteronomy 22:5 is considered "current and relevant", then why not make public lapidation the punishment for adultery? (I've used Old Testament doctrine in defence of that sentiment more than a few times, much to the horror of folks around me.) "In for a penny, in for a pound", as the old saying goes. One does not get to cherry-pick. One bite of the apple is as good as the whole thing.
This would be better defended by one who believed it, not me, but I'll give my understanding. Either, what was sinful remains sinful, except for Jewish ceremonial laws, but the civil penalties don't apply because of Jesus. OR, Old Testament laws only apply to Christians if they are repeated in the New Testament (I'm more in agreement with this approach), and Deut 22.5 is supported in 1 Corinthians 6.9 (KJV) with the word "effeminate." (Yes, modern translations don't use that word.)
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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TSH wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:39 am
ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:21 am
TSH wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:56 pm
If "someone's" entire religion revolves around outdated, superstitious doctrine, they should re-evaluate their belief system. Said religion's doctrine is being thrown at us, so disparaging it is fair game. It's actively trying to make these harder for us. Not just MiS, but humanity as a whole.
I think we should rise above disparaging others since we would like others to not disparage us for wearing a skirt.
That's easier said than done, because non-confrontational people are not exempt from this treatment just because they make an admission to not stoop to the level of reflecting the same attitude back at the instigator(s).
If doing the right thing was easy, we wouldn’t have any problems. Don’t stoop to their level. Be tolerant of others choices just as you’d want them to tolerate your own.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:18 am I think we as a group should NOT debate religion. This is a hot topic that no one will win and will detract from discussing men wearing skirts.

I think a group that simultaneously requests tolerance from society for our belief that men wear whatever they please and is intolerant to others religious beliefs is painfully ironic and disappointing.
This is not a debate about religion in the slightest -- it's about how one particular branch of one particular religion has gone off the rails due to a botched translation in one particular passage that has become a cudgel that is only used against about 50% of the population, and then merely because of their sex. The scope is minuscule.

If it was truly about religion, the scope would instantly expand to encompass all the other world religions, of which there are multitudes.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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crfriend wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:56 am
ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:18 am I think we as a group should NOT debate religion. This is a hot topic that no one will win and will detract from discussing men wearing skirts.

I think a group that simultaneously requests tolerance from society for our belief that men wear whatever they please and is intolerant to others religious beliefs is painfully ironic and disappointing.
This is not a debate about religion in the slightest -- it's about how one particular branch of one particular religion has gone off the rails due to a botched translation in one particular passage that has become a cudgel that is only used against about 50% of the population, and then merely because of their sex. The scope is minuscule.

If it was truly about religion, the scope would instantly expand to encompass all the other world religions, of which there are multitudes.
Yeah - this is close to how I see it too. We are dealing with the one bit of scripture that is used to "hurt" men and pretty much only men, except in some very conservative/traditional sections of Christianity where it is applied to women as well (though not in as harsh of ways). And it's not even so much about religion per-se, but rather how to analyze that particular passage, understand it's context, and brush it aside as being irrelevant. And frankly, I don't even think we are trying to change those people's beliefs - just help other members deal with family/friends/their own feelings of shame because of it.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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crfriend wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:56 am
This is not a debate about religion in the slightest -- it's about how one particular branch of one particular religion has gone off the rails due to a botched translation in one particular passage that has become a cudgel that is only used against about 50% of the population, and then merely because of their sex.
Stating “one particular religion” went “off the rails” and “botched translation” is debating “one particular religion”. I think we should avoid ridiculing any particular religion’s translation.

One can find followers of any religion including atheists who disagree with men wearing skirts. It’s not the religion but the people. I have a feeling most people of “one particular religion” don’t know or care about that passage in Deuteronomy yet somehow you do?

I really think it’s a bad thing for this forum to bash a religion, one in particular or any religion for that matter
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:21 pm
crfriend wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:56 am
This is not a debate about religion in the slightest -- it's about how one particular branch of one particular religion has gone off the rails due to a botched translation in one particular passage that has become a cudgel that is only used against about 50% of the population, and then merely because of their sex.
Stating “one particular religion” went “off the rails” and “botched translation” is debating “one particular religion”. I think we should avoid ridiculing any particular religion’s translation.

One can find followers of any religion including atheists who disagree with men wearing skirts. It’s not the religion but the people. I have a feeling most people of “one particular religion” don’t know or care about that passage in Deuteronomy yet somehow you do?

I really think it’s a bad thing for this forum to bash a religion, one in particular or any religion for that matter
I think a lot of problems related to MIS stem from that passage - it has shaped our culture over the past thousands of years. Even atheists can’t escape its clutches.

I DO believe at the same time we are ultimately facing a bigotry of sorts - or if that’s too harsh a word - people have their preferences. They like to be able to predict what a man/woman looks like - you start “questioning” that by mixing clothes or presentation - sometimes the only signifier of ones gender - and people get uneasy. They resist change. Some truly don’t have an answer - they just find it “wrong” - and go to religion for an answer that corresponds with their feelings. I’m not discounting religion - I believe there are absolute truths - but in the case of clothes it is largely a secular matter.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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Coder wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:34 pmI think a lot of problems related to MIS stem from that passage - it has shaped our culture over the past thousands of years. Even atheists can’t escape its clutches.
It's more than just MIS. That blown translation has been at the root of a whole lot of grief over the years, for men and women alike, until the women were able to shuck it off.

To the allegation that I was "bashing" a single "religion", I will offer the notion that I was assailing one egregious gaffe in translation in one passage of obsolete doctrine -- not an entire belief system.

The reason that even atheists cannot escape the clutches of Deuteronomy is that much of the culture in the West is controlled by the belief system with the errant passage, and way too many people put way too much credence in said passage. Outright atheists are just about as thin on the ground are men in skirts, so that aggravates the problem as well.
[... People] like to be able to predict what a man/woman looks like - you start “questioning” that by mixing clothes or presentation - sometimes the only signifier of ones gender - and people get uneasy.
This would be best addressed by dropping the notion that all men are "toxic" monsters and are actually human beings. Most folks live their lives in fear, and men are looked upon as threats now unless you happen to personally know the one you're looking at. Thus, a guy in a skirt must be up to no good because he's trying to disguise himself (in accordance with the faulty Deuteronomy translation) and intends evil. It's a tar-pit of a situation to wind up in, but that's the way it's evolved over the years.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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I think we are ascribing too much to one passage. Before it was mentioned here, I never knew it existed and I grew up in church.

I think members of this forum know it because of what this cafe stands for. But the majority of the population can’t quote any scripture outside of “eat, drink and be merry”. Bet it’s been discussed more over the past few days on this cafe then it has been discussed everywhere else over the year.

That scripture came at a time men wore dresses and skirts.

I’m gonna still suggest we leave the discussion/criticism of religion out of this cafe. Just ain’t helping and it looks awful. We should be welcoming.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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Coder wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:34 pm
ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:21 pm
crfriend wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:56 am
This is not a debate about religion in the slightest -- it's about how one particular branch of one particular religion has gone off the rails due to a botched translation in one particular passage that has become a cudgel that is only used against about 50% of the population, and then merely because of their sex.
Stating “one particular religion” went “off the rails” and “botched translation” is debating “one particular religion”. I think we should avoid ridiculing any particular religion’s translation.

One can find followers of any religion including atheists who disagree with men wearing skirts. It’s not the religion but the people. I have a feeling most people of “one particular religion” don’t know or care about that passage in Deuteronomy yet somehow you do?

I really think it’s a bad thing for this forum to bash a religion, one in particular or any religion for that matter
I think a lot of problems related to MIS stem from that passage - it has shaped our culture over the past thousands of years. Even atheists can’t escape its clutches.

I DO believe at the same time we are ultimately facing a bigotry of sorts - or if that’s too harsh a word - people have their preferences. They like to be able to predict what a man/woman looks like - you start “questioning” that by mixing clothes or presentation - sometimes the only signifier of ones gender - and people get uneasy. They resist change. Some truly don’t have an answer - they just find it “wrong” - and go to religion for an answer that corresponds with their feelings. I’m not discounting religion - I believe there are absolute truths - but in the case of clothes it is largely a secular matter.
People resist change. Especially big changes. One reason I love your style is you seem to dress like a guy who just so happens to wear a skirt. Small changes. Less trouble for others to accept. Harder to find it wrong.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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ScotL wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:31 am I’m gonna still suggest we leave the discussion/criticism of religion out of this cafe. Just ain’t helping and it looks awful. We should be welcoming.
I don't think we can avoid the topic - that particular passage needs to be addressed from time to time. That being said, it's been addressed a ton on this site. IMHO, instead of having the same discussions/arguments over it (and religion) - could we put together a sticky post on that passage? We could then point people to it when the topic surfaces. There are a lot of websites that talk about it, but it seems like everyone here has a slightly different perspective and has different, erm, understanding of it. Some things I've read from other members that I don't know where the source material comes from, and so on. I'm thinking a wikipedia-style post that links to sources. Just a thought!
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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Coder wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:40 am
ScotL wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:31 am I’m gonna still suggest we leave the discussion/criticism of religion out of this cafe. Just ain’t helping and it looks awful. We should be welcoming.
I don't think we can avoid the topic - that particular passage needs to be addressed from time to time. That being said, it's been addressed a ton on this site. IMHO, instead of having the same discussions/arguments over it (and religion) - could we put together a sticky post on that passage? We could then point people to it when the topic surfaces. There are a lot of websites that talk about it, but it seems like everyone here has a slightly different perspective and has different, erm, understanding of it. Some things I've read from other members that I don't know where the source material comes from, and so on. I'm thinking a wikipedia-style post that links to sources. Just a thought!
I got no problem discussing the passage but honestly, it took me finding a MIS website to learn it. And I’ve been to a lot of church and bible studies. Like this cafe says the biggest detractor to us wearing skirts is just us, I think the people who fixate on that passage when everyone else just don’t know it, are the people on this cafe. I think it best to forget about it like most do.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

Post by Fred in Skirts »

That passage has been quoted to me several times in the past. I find it mostly by people in the South (US) and by the "holier than thou" types more than anyone else.
I usually counter by saying I am not under the Law but under Christ. And those that judge will also be judged. Usually shuts them down.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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TSH wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:39 am
ScotL wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:21 am
TSH wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:56 pm
If "someone's" entire religion revolves around outdated, superstitious doctrine, they should re-evaluate their belief system. Said religion's doctrine is being thrown at us, so disparaging it is fair game. It's actively trying to make these harder for us. Not just MiS, but humanity as a whole.
I think we should rise above disparaging others since we would like others to not disparage us for wearing a skirt.
That's easier said than done, because non-confrontational people are not exempt from this treatment just because they make an admission to not stoop to the level of reflecting the same attitude back at the instigator(s).
Yes, doing the right thing is not easy.

When I look at today, we do not discuss things with each other to find the middle ground. We argue and yell at each other, insult them for not thinking exactly the way we do and in the end become more divided. Reminds me of the saying “the beatings will continue until morale improves”.

I think the confrontational approach has led us to where we are today. It’s time to change and compromise. Would anyone object to a world where the worst thing that happens to MIS is I wear a skirt I like and the other person only says I don’t like that look.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

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ScotL wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:52 amI got no problem discussing the passage but honestly, it took me finding a MIS website to learn it. And I’ve been to a lot of church and bible studies.
That only goes to show that your congregation followed the teachings of the New Testament and not the Old. The reason you likely ran into the concept here at a site dedicated to Men In Skirts is that the passage is used against us more frequently than we'd like, and it's wielded as a weapon; thus, we tend to be rather sensitive on the matter. Compounding matters, is the tendency for the thing to be wielded by zealots and zealot wannabes who tend to be ineducable and who will not listen to reason, and that creates other problems. Fred accurately called out the "type" who wield the thing.
Like this cafe says the biggest detractor to us wearing skirts is just us, I think the people who fixate on that passage when everyone else just don’t know it, are the people on this cafe. I think it best to forget about it like most do.
It's not a matter of "fixating on the passage", it's just that an awareness of it will help prepare the individual for what he'll almost inevitably receive at some point in his tenure from a hard-core zealot. The awareness will help the individual decide what to do in the heat of the moment.

Indeed, for the most part, men are their own worst enemies in this, and that's whether their wives/SOs are "on-side" or not. We do not open our eyes to possibilities because we're not used to it after being constrained for so long -- and that's one of the mentalities we're fighting with. And grappling with an internal problem usually causes guys a major problem.
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Re: Skirts for Men: Why More Men Should Wear Them

Post by Ray »

I don’t get any sense of religion-bashing. Not on this thread anyway. Many here are discarding or ridiculing a gendered quote (see Carl’s comment), but not the belief system.

In my view, the bible is a work of fiction, but as I said, I respect the fact that there are differing views on this. I’m not going to have a go at a religion - any religion, including Islam, Buddhism and so on. I’m also grateful for the fact that the few people I know (very few indeed) who are in any way religious in turn never have a go at me for NOT being religious.
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