Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Stevej180
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Stu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:22 pm My time spent in academia taught me just how misandric and insane mainstream feminism has become. Please don't be under any illusions - radical feminists are no friends of the male of the species and that is why so many former radfems have come to eschew this cult. One of the ways that any emerging political faction uses to promote its creed is to invent its own vocabulary and feminism has done so with a number of anti-male expressions and concepts: "toxic masculinity" is just one, but there others like "mansplaining", "male gaze" and "rape culture". They also redefine existing terms to mean something quite different - an example of this is "misogyny", which means a pathological hatred of women while feminists have tried to extend the meaning to include men using terms like "babe".

I had originally believed that feminism was a benign belief system which meant seeking to protect women from inequality, discrimination and mistreatment, but my time working with feminist texts taught me how naive and ignorant I had been. If anyone talks to me about "toxic masculinity", I will challenge them in a very direct way. Masculinity is an innate characteristic of male human beings just as dark skin s an innate characteristic of Sub-Saharan human beings. Linking either with toxicity is pure bigotry.
I kind of disagree with you. I would argue that feminism is the healthy pursuit of inequality etc as you describe, and 'toxic feminism' is that which spills over into the more 'radical' that you describe. Similarly, masculinity is a positive set of attributes but 'toxic masculinity' is when that spills over into inappropriate behaviours that are encouraged and nurtured by others. For example: to be stoic is, perhaps, a masculine trait. To teach and to police that guys must never show emotions other than anger... that's toxic masculinity.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Stevej180 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:32 pm
I kind of disagree with you. I would argue that feminism is the healthy pursuit of inequality
The pursuit of INEQUALITY is healthy? I don't understand that.

Of course, feminism has never been predicated on equality, but in the pursuit of rights and privileges for certain groups of women at the expense of men and other women.
Stevej180 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:32 pmand 'toxic feminism' is that which spills over into the more 'radical' that you describe
Unfortunately, the one branch of feminism that was genuinely interested in equality, so-called "equity feminism" as championed by scholars like Prof. Christina Hoff Sommers and Camille Paglia has been not only sidelined, but wholly rejected by the mainstream which itself has now split between Third Wave and Fourth wave - both of which are what we would probably think of as radicals.
Stevej180 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:32 pmSimilarly, masculinity is a positive set of attributes but 'toxic masculinity' is when that spills over into inappropriate behaviours that are encouraged and nurtured by others.
OK, that brings me back to my earlier point about innate characteristics being labelled "toxic" when what you are really talking about is culture. The example I supplied was an analogy of race rather than gender. In London, about 30% of the population are black yet, if you are mugged, there will be about a 90% chance that the assailant will be black. Would you say that "toxic blackness" is a problem? Of course you wouldn't, even though the chances are that the offender belongs to a culture where such crimes are positively encouraged. The issue is not the blackness - it is the individual's behaviour which, in turn, is culturally predicated. The same applies to masculinity. femininity, homosexuality, transsexuality and so on.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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jamie001 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:47 pm Toxic masculinity is alive and well! Here are just several examples:

You throw like a girl!
I used to be a tester for truck driving. Most students were male but occasionally there would be a female student. The women were good drivers but they tended to drive too conservatively. One female student I had was very aggressive and did a great job handling the big vehicle in traffic as she went through all the gears. I told her "Don't take this the wrong way, but you drive this like a man ". She accepted it as a compliment and seemed genuinely flattered. So here was a woman being told she did something like a man and that was a good thing. "You drive like a man" is not the same as "you throw like a girl".

I used to be told all the time to "act like a man" and it always hurt me. To this day, I feel like I can't be emotional in public and cry at funerals or movies. It's a darn shame that men are brought up like this. It is so damaging to men and society at large. When will the world change?
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Brad wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:06 pm
jamie001 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:47 pm Toxic masculinity is alive and well! Here are just several examples:

You throw like a girl!
I used to be a tester for truck driving. Most students were male but occasionally there would be a female student. The women were good drivers but they tended to drive too conservatively. One female student I had was very aggressive and did a great job handling the big vehicle in traffic as she went through all the gears. I told her "Don't take this the wrong way, but you drive this like a man ". She accepted it as a compliment and seemed genuinely flattered. So here was a woman being told she did something like a man and that was a good thing. "You drive like a man" is not the same as "you throw like a girl".

I used to be told all the time to "act like a man" and it always hurt me. To this day, I feel like I can't be emotional in public and cry at funerals or movies. It's a darn shame that men are brought up like this. It is so damaging to men and society at large. When will the world change?
The world may never change. Toxic masculinity behavior is cultivated and passed down from generation to generation.

In my case, when I am told that I do something like a girl, I am very flattered and I thank them for the compliment. There is nothing wrong with aspiring to the feminine because females are superior to males in most aspects.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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A few years ago at a canal work party I was taunted, to make me "man up", by an ex-military type with: "You're girly" and other similar comments. I just agreed and carried on with my work.  It didn't take him long to realise that it had no effect because I didn't regard it as an insult.

That was before I realised I was transgender.  He knows that if he said it now, I would thank him for the compliment.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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jamie001 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:23 am because females are superior to males in most aspects.
Yeah, and there we see the bigotry of the woke.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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pelmut wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:29 amA few years ago at a canal work party I was taunted, to make me "man up", by an ex-military type with: "You're girly" and other similar comments. I just agreed and carried on with my work.
You were probably out-performing him and he was jealous (and insecure --- i.e. macho).
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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crfriend wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:42 pm
pelmut wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:29 amA few years ago at a canal work party I was taunted, to make me "man up", by an ex-military type with: "You're girly" and other similar comments. I just agreed and carried on with my work.
You were probably out-performing him and he was jealous (and insecure --- i.e. macho).
Physically I had nowhere near his strength or stamina, but I had no desire to be physically strong and was just content to do only as much as I could.  He wasn't jealous of me, but he was definitely insecure.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Some comment only hurts if the person saying it has some importance or status in your scheme of things. If you don't care about them then what you say can't hurt.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Double post - this one deleted - sorry
Last edited by rivegauche on Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

Post by rivegauche »

I am Scottish, not English (and I don't follow football), but it strikes that me that if an English male footballer was now told he played like a girl that might be an improvement! For our American friends, football = soccer and England has just won the World Cup in women's football.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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Stu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:02 am
jamie001 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:23 am because females are superior to males in most aspects.
Yeah, and there we see the bigotry of the woke.
Women are quite superior to men. Do you realize that greater than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed by males? Why? It is the way that males are raised and socialized!

Women are much less violent and therefore they are superior to men.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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jamie001 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:29 pm Women are quite superior to men.
My mother was always scornful of the notion that women should be regarded as equal to men, because she thought that women were superior. (My father was wise enough to remain silent.)
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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jamie001 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:29 pmWomen are quite superior to men. Do you realize that greater than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed by males? Why? It is the way that males are raised and socialized!
BS. Women are just as violent as men but they take it out psychologically rather than physically -- and psychological wounds can be just as bad, if not worse, then physical ones.
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Re: Books reviews: How Toxic Is Masculinity?

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crfriend wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:01 pm
jamie001 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:29 pmWomen are quite superior to men. Do you realize that greater than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed by males? Why? It is the way that males are raised and socialized!
BS. Women are just as violent as men but they take it out psychologically rather than physically -- and psychological wounds can be just as bad, if not worse, then physical ones.
I haven't done the research myself, but I intend to - I've heard that women perpetrate Domestic Violence (DV) as well, and often it's the man who gets sent to jail even if he's defending himself or is the one with the wounds. I'm not trying to go all "Men's rights!!!" on ya, but if we are going to quote things like "90%" there had better be some good studies that prove this conclusively.

Edit: I realize the claim was on violent crimes - and I do believe that statistic, but I don't believe it somehow reflects poorly on males. I consider it a societal issue - just as higher crime rates tend to correlate with neighborhoods with lower incomes. It isn't that people are more violent - but society bring out the worst in a lot of people.
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