Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
SkaterSkirtWearer
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Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by SkaterSkirtWearer »

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/education/ ... cy-9096714
This article is about a local school (within Norfolk so not far from my hometown) where the school have allowed both trousers and skirts for girls and boys. However, this has caused a backlash with parents who on one hand say they do not have a problem with boys wearing skirts publicly; then contradict themselves by saying they would prefer to have shorts instead for both girls and boys due to judgement concerns towards them for wearing skirts. I certainly know what I would try wearing in the heat at school if I was there now as a skirt would be much more comfortable, however school bullies would always get their way which is clearly the concern here. I wonder what would have happened if a boy wore a skirt before this policy was introduced!! It feels to me an exercise of doing nothing while saying a lot to me by the school but understand their viewpoint.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Faldaguy »

Why is it we seem to assume that any boy who wears a skirt to school is going to get bullied? Is it similar to the fears so many on this site have expressed about wearing their skirts in public? Not a real issue -- just a projection of your own fears.

It seems we have had stories of boys wearing skirts to school, and it went just fine. No doubt doing so in groups, or for an event makes it easier as the UK kids found a couple years back -- and it could be sustained if the kids so chose.

I suspect, like with "adults" the key factor will be confidence and character. The boys who have "standing" at the school, the boys who have confidence and the ability to tell detractors why, will likely win over the 'bullies' and 'dummies'.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by SkaterSkirtWearer »

Definitely, taking a skirt with me in my bag to change into when I am out in a busy city where no one knows me and I will wear it with confidence and should not have any issues. It is almost as if it is still trying to be discouraged through fear and I recall seeing a boy wearing one at my school back in 2016 for a day when it was hot and no one even cared as they did it with confidence!!! Just had a look at the policy and my old school does now allow shorts and does not dictate the gender to which different clothing applies to.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

Bizarrely, a person commenting on a Facebook forum recently listed "a boy being allowed to go to school in a skirt" among his reasons for voting for Brexit. And he complained that people characterized Brexit voters as "thick" and "ill-informed".
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by TSH »

Utterly absurd. Shorts might not offer the same comfort a skirt can, but they're still much more optimal than school slacks, and BOTH boys and girls should be able to choose which of these three articles of clothing they want to wear. There's simply no reason why they shouldn't be able to wear shorts. While I'm glad the parents seem to realize that there's nothing inherently wrong with a boy wearing a skirt, and that appreciation extends to the school council for also acknowledging this, this is ultimately just one small step forward, and a larger step backwards.
SkaterSkirtWearer wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:24 am https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/education/ ... cy-9096714
However, this has caused a backlash with parents who on one hand say they do not have a problem with boys wearing skirts publicly; then contradict themselves by saying they would prefer to have shorts instead for both girls and boys due to judgement concerns towards them for wearing skirts.
Is it really a contradiction, though? Just because the school doesn't prohibits boys in skirts, that's not going to encourage them to actually wear skirts, and I doubt many of them would want to. I think they'll be afraid of being a target of mockery because skirts would realistically still be seen as clothes only girls "should" wear. That's what I get from the adults who prefer to have the students wear shorts; it's something people are more used to seeing.
Faldaguy wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:39 am Why is it we seem to assume that any boy who wears a skirt to school is going to get bullied? Is it similar to the fears so many on this site have expressed about wearing their skirts in public? Not a real issue -- just a projection of your own fears.
Because that's the nature of people. Alienating those who don't conform to the status quo, and this happens quite a lot. It's similar because these fears stem from experiences some people here have had concerning what they wore. It being a projection doesn't take away that it's still an issue, especially if one lives in a more "conservative" area.
Myopic Bookworm wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:24 pm Bizarrely, a person commenting on a Facebook forum recently listed "a boy being allowed to go to school in a skirt" among his reasons for voting for Brexit. And he complained that people characterized Brexit voters as "thick" and "ill-informed".
Curious to see what his other reasons were. He definitely doesn't give himself or his ilk a good name if he thinks that justifies a country withdrawing from the EU.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Stu »

The headmaster isn't being genuine. If he were a serious option, then he would ask a uniform supplier to design and manufacture skirts specifically for boys (perhaps based on kilts but with a solid colour - just as they designed trousers specifically for girls). That would be transparent and fair; nobody could object to that and the boys would look smart while maintaining the "boy" appearance. However, the skirt thing is really a smokescreen - the head knows perfectly well that boys aren't going to wear skirts because there is no such thing as boys' school skirts. The head's plan is to keep a shorts ban, but without being accused of treating boys less favourably than girls by giving the latter a choice that the former does not enjoy. He is hoping to maintain the inequality by pretending it is equality. It isn't - it's a con trick to get around equality legislation.

Unfortunately.
Myopic Bookworm wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:24 pm Bizarrely, a person commenting on a Facebook forum recently listed "a boy being allowed to go to school in a skirt" among his reasons for voting for Brexit. And he complained that people characterized Brexit voters as "thick" and "ill-informed".
There were people who were thick and ill-informed on both sides of the Brexit argument. And there were thoughtful, intelligent and well-informed people on both sides of the argument. Both sides put forward their respective cases in 2016 - and both sides challenged the claims of the opposite side or the argument. Then the electorate voted and the matter was settled. Or it should have been.

People still hold strong views on this and it's perhaps not a good or relevant topic for this forum.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by new2skirts »

Myopic Bookworm wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:24 pm Bizarrely, a person commenting on a Facebook forum recently listed "a boy being allowed to go to school in a skirt" among his reasons for voting for Brexit. And he complained that people characterized Brexit voters as "thick" and "ill-informed".
Talking of the B word, the Daily Fail also ran with this story and it featured on LBC (popular national phone in radio and media station in the UK), no doubt to set off the "gammon" (UK equivalent of Karens) to get them so hot and bothered over something so "controversial" :roll: I think no one has an issue of boys in skirts, but as is usual in these articles, the shorts ban makes no sense to most. The majority of UK schools have no air conditioning, so it's either a greenhouse in summer, freezing in winter... perhaps they will be upset when a schoolboy wears grey tights with his skirt in winter instead of the regulation black :lol:

As this hot weather continues, more articles about schoolboys/builders/bus drivers etc in skirts will emerge, you can set your watch to it :wink:
Last edited by new2skirts on Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by STEVIE »

Faldaguy wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:39 am Why is it we seem to assume that any boy who wears a skirt to school is going to get bullied? Is it similar to the fears so many on this site have expressed about wearing their skirts in public? Not a real issue -- just a projection of your own fears.
Hi Faldaguy
I have no idea where you live or attended school but it is a perfectly real issue and I have had some disappointing talks with kids in my area that confirms it.
The stories about "boys" wearing skirts were just that, boys, plural, a group who had safety in numbers. That is not to mention the added kudos of being seen to challenge the rules too.
That was a stunt but any lone boy who ventures into class in a skirt or dress has to be very tough or very stupid.
I'd bet no cafe members except Jenn ever dared and things really have not changed that much.
Please take off the rose tinted spectacles and see the world for what it is, often beautiful and a lot of times ugly.
Steve.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Faldaguy »

Hola Steve,

I am curious as to the circumstances of the conversations you've had with kids in your area that "confirms it". Did you raise the questions, or did they? Were they just curious about your skirt; or was it something that arose from the general milieu of bullying in schools?

I have no illusions about how mean and vile kids can be toward one another; no more than I do, as you say, about there being a lot of both beauty and ugly in this world. My schools days are long past, and mostly were in the US and Canada; though a bit more extended from a short period when my wife was teaching; and when I often appear in schools here (Costa Rica) while in my usual attire --skirts. Decidedly, our Quaker school here is blessed with a culture of tolerance, for me and the students -- albeit I do not recall any students yet following my example except for 'plays' and such where such deviation is acceptable.

However, I don't think it is only my rose colored glasses--but the lack of confidence to step outside the 'norm' regardless of age and setting. When one does, yes they need to be "tough" (I prefer some different adjectives) but I'm still inclined to think we project our fears onto others making them seem less tolerant and thus we have an excuse for our own timidity.

I concur that most of the "stories" are groups of boys bolstered by some event and challenge to authority; yet you can find a few where individuals have stepped out successfully. I do suspect you are correct that there will inevitably be some kids who will mock or attempt to bully any who they deem weak or inferior; yet there are kids that routinely disregard the accepted "cool" and by their own constitution do just fine. As in the wider society, we are seeing students coming out as GLBTQ and more (religion, culture, ethnicity) and adding to a growing awareness of diversity.

Anyway, if you've found avenues to broach the subject of male kids in skirts, I'd love to know more.

Pura vida!
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by jamie001 »

Stu wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:14 pm The headmaster isn't being genuine. If he were a serious option, then he would ask a uniform supplier to design and manufacture skirts specifically for boys (perhaps based on kilts but with a solid colour - just as they designed trousers specifically for girls). That would be transparent and fair; nobody could object to that and the boys would look smart while maintaining the "boy" appearance. However, the skirt thing is really a smokescreen - the head knows perfectly well that boys aren't going to wear skirts because there is no such thing as boys' school skirts. The head's plan is to keep a shorts ban, but without being accused of treating boys less favourably than girls by giving the latter a choice that the former does not enjoy. He is hoping to maintain the inequality by pretending it is equality. It isn't - it's a con trick to get around equality legislation.
What you are suggesting is nothing but a cop-out! Instead of giving boys freedom to wear girl's skirts, it creates a special boy's skirt just for them to wear. What if a boy wants to wear a girl's skirt? Would you confine him to wearing skirts that are deigned specially for boys?

Do you see that this solution is just perpetuating the original problem?
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Stu »

jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:24 am
What you are suggesting is nothing but a cop-out! Instead of giving boys freedom to wear girl's skirts, it creates a special boy's skirt just for them to wear. What if a boy wants to wear a girl's skirt? Would you confine him to wearing skirts that are deigned specially for boys?

Do you see that this solution is just perpetuating the original problem?

No - and I don't see your argument. Girls are allowed to wear trousers - girls' trousers - designed for girls. Why should boys have to effectively cross-dress - wear garments specifically made for the opposite sex? How many boys who are not trans are going to want to do that? Very few if any!

Of course, if skirts for boys become normalised, then there is no reason that some couldn't be produced that are classed as unisex, but we are not at that point yet.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by jamie001 »

Stu wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:44 am No - and I don't see your argument. Girls are allowed to wear trousers - girls' trousers - designed for girls. Why should boys have to effectively cross-dress - wear garments specifically made for the opposite sex? How many boys who are not trans are going to want to do that? Very few if any!

Of course, if skirts for boys become normalised, then there is no reason that some couldn't be produced that are classed as unisex, but we are not at that point yet.
The only way for men to ever attain true fashion freedom is for men to be able to wear women's clothing items. It is not crossdressing. Crossdressing is the attempt to deceive others into believing that you are the opposite sex. If skirts are made for boys they will undoubtedly make them in the standard masculine colors of black, brown, blue, and maybe gray and maybe even with pictures of dinosaurs. Yuck, men have enough drab color and drab pattern fashion choices. At that point we are back to "boys clothing and girls clothing" with no real fashion freedom. True fashion freedom would consist of boys being able to wear girl's skirts in all of the patterns and colors that are available to girls. I wear women's skirts because I enjoy the patterns and colors that are available. If skirts were made for men, we would be limited to the drab color palette and no floral patterns. I also wear women's sandals because I like the look and design. Men's sandals are designed to make the foot appear larger. Since men already have larger feet then women, why do shoe designers create shoes for men that make the male foot appear even larger? It doesn't make any sense.

The solution is to create women's items in sizes and cuts that will fit men. Whether those items are skirts or shoes, keep the beautiful colors and patterns and feminine designs that are available to women but make the items available in cuts and sizes to fit a male body.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Stu »

jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pm

The only way for men to ever attain true fashion freedom is for men to be able to wear women's clothing items. It is not crossdressing. Crossdressing is the attempt to deceive others into believing that you are the opposite sex.
No. From the Oxford English Dictionary:

VERB

[NO OBJECT]
Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex.



No mention of "attempting to deceive".
jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pmIf skirts are made for boys they will undoubtedly make them in the standard masculine colors of black, brown, blue, and maybe gray and maybe even with pictures of dinosaurs. Yuck, men have enough drab color and drab pattern fashion choices.
We are talking about school uniforms which are generally in drab colours and, in this case, they are indeed grey - for both boys and girls.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by rode_kater »

jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:24 am What you are suggesting is nothing but a cop-out! Instead of giving boys freedom to wear girl's skirts, it creates a special boy's skirt just for them to wear. What if a boy wants to wear a girl's skirt? Would you confine him to wearing skirts that are deigned specially for boys?
The problem is the labelling of them as "boys" and "girls" skirts.

If you take a step back, what the purpose of clothing styles? It's to emphasise the parts of your body you want to emphasise, and to minimise the parts you want to minimise. To look good it's helpful to take account of your body shape and what you're trying to present.

A "girls skirt" isn't going to look great on all girls. A "boys skirt" wouldn't look good on all boys either. Ideally you'd want to have different styles so people could choose which suited them best.

However, it just occurred to me that we're talking about school uniforms and no doubt the goal is to make them look terrible on everybody. Boys and girls alike.
jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:24 am Do you see that this solution is just perpetuating the original problem?
We should just stop genderising clothing full stop. You can buy t-shirts online in styles like "straight" and "fitted". We all know perfectly well that most guys are buying the "straight" t-shirts and the gals are buying the "tailored" ones. But there are fans both ways because they feel for their body type and style the other kind is better. And frankly nobody cares.
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Re: Local school not allowing shorts but allowing skirts for boys and girls in gender neutral policy

Post by Coder »

Stu wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:46 pm
jamie001 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pm The only way for men to ever attain true fashion freedom is for men to be able to wear women's clothing items. It is not crossdressing. Crossdressing is the attempt to deceive others into believing that you are the opposite sex.
No. From the Oxford English Dictionary:

VERB

[NO OBJECT]
Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex.


No mention of "attempting to deceive".
From an Oxford dictionary standpoint - sure. But, growing up and even nowadays, when I think "crossdresser" I think "man who adopts clothes, mannerisms, etc... as a woman and in effect to appear as one" -> not sure I'd use the word deceive. Women wear men's clothes ALL the time - they aren't considered crossdressers even though they meet the definition - but no one sees them that way. And ultimately - it's all about how people perceive intentions. A woman who cloaks up in her boyfriends clothes - well - cute! Adorable! But a guy doing the opposite? Pervert! Weirdo! Women have to go out of their way to be noticed "Oh, she's wearing a man's suit" in men's outfits.

IMHO, while we can all agree what the dictionary says, it's public opinion that we deal with and what counts. They might as well change that definition to "Men who wear women's clothes".
rode_kater wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:06 pm We should just stop genderising clothing full stop. You can buy t-shirts online in styles like "straight" and "fitted". We all know perfectly well that most guys are buying the "straight" t-shirts and the gals are buying the "tailored" ones. But there are fans both ways because they feel for their body type and style the other kind is better. And frankly nobody cares.
As for t-shirts - I have been buying fitted t's for a few years now, and during COVID took up wearing them full-time - now all my regular shirts feel like I'm wearing a sack, and the only negative comment I got about one shirt (from a family member) was: "Those sleeves seem a bit short". I don't wear them skin-tight - and even have bought some men's t's in a size small recently.

Companies need to do more than just list how clothes fit though - they need to model those "unisex" clothes for "curvy bodies" on both genders. I think Earthbound Trading does this, as do a few others.
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