Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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renesm1
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Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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https://hbr.org/2017/08/what-happens-wh ... ms-at-work

I thought this was quite a good article on why men should wear what they want at work. I have mixed feelings about the term "fabulous" men.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Yes - I think the term “fabulous” is overloaded in a way that the regular male out on the street might bristle at it. If you were to tell them they can dress fabulously… they might dress even more macho that before.

But I think giving fashion freedom a name could be helpful - is there a better one? “Fashion freedom” is ok, perhaps a bit too ‘merica.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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The bottom line is that there is a stigma associated with anything considered feminine, particularly in the workplace. While there have been significant advances in the feminism movement, being female is still equated with being the weaker sex. Until both males and females embrace degrees of femininity in males, there will never be full equality. That is the irony: women often conform to backwards thinking as much as men. They are allowed and sometimes encouraged to embrace degrees of masculinity, but their men better not exhibit any “feminine” traits. Perhaps it all goes back to basic stereotypical biology: males are supposed to be large and in charge, the “protectors/hunters”, and any man who dares to don anything considered feminine detracts from that ideology.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Offkilter69 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:47 pm The bottom line is that there is a stigma associated with anything considered feminine, particularly in the workplace.
One of the benefits I've realised now that I go back into the office regularly and it's getting warmer outside: I see all the fabulous dresses on the female colleagues. You don't see them on Teams. Some a simple and straightforward, some are colourful. All are better than jeans+t-shirt.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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I agree! Skirted attire is great to wear and to be seen on women!
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Offkilter69 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:10 pmI agree! Skirted attire is great to wear and to be seen on women!
It's actually nice to be seen in general as it lends a softer look to the hard and "industrial" looks of the modern world.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Coder wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:29 am Yes - I think the term “fabulous” is overloaded in a way that the regular male out on the street might bristle at it. If you were to tell them they can dress fabulously… they might dress even more macho that before.

But I think giving fashion freedom a name could be helpful - is there a better one? “Fashion freedom” is ok, perhaps a bit too ‘merica.
"Fabulousness," to me at least, implies campy, stereotypical, homosexual behavior. Definitely a turn off to most regular guys. It fits with the descriptions of a few of these guys, however. Some of their stuff sounded way over the top. But some sounded quite reasonable, even professional, just with a bit of extra color and fun.

"Fashion freedom" may be a bit "Merica" sounding, I suppose, but I never read it that way till you mentioned it. It honestly felt like a pretty neutral term, with maybe just a little bit of the opposite, with some implied "showiness" or something from the word "fashion."

As to creative dressing at work, I think there is a limit, and it depends on the industry, the occasion, and so on. The guys interviewed seemed to get that, either intuitively or as the result of being directly told to tone it down after stepping too far past the fuzzy, grey line of acceptability.

For any location or event there are standards, and dressing accordingly is what used to be known as "modesty." (Different standards at church and at the beach, for instance.) Depending on your position, there are different standards as well, and dressing to those is part of humility. (My boss dresses differently than I do most days, office workers dress differently from electricians and welders, etc.)

One of the interviewees stated that he wears the same stuff to the club as to work. I don't see how that should ever really work, and I think he was one that got shot down by his boss. But I also wouldn't say it's appropriate to wear a business suit to the club or to the beach either. (Too many hard-core "conservatives" or "traditionalists" miss this side of the equation.)

While I'd like to see more individuality allowed in more places, there are limits. I remember my one old college professor talking about his time working on Wall Street. He said at one time they tried to institute "casual Fridays." He first complained that he had to buy new clothes, as he owned very little that was between his suits and the stuff he painted the house in. But then he made the real point: "people expect their bankers to look like bankers." And it's true. If someone goes to deposit many thousands of dollars, but the person he is about to hand it over to doesn't look like a banker, are they going to go elsewhere?

I think most people today would consider a banker in a colorful bow tie to be appropriately dressed, and even appreciate the splash of color in an otherwise somber and serious environment. But I also see why it could be seen as unnecessarily risky in a high stakes professional environment. Thus guys relegate their desire for color to their socks. What a sad state of affairs.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Offkilter69 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:47 pm The bottom line is that there is a stigma associated with anything considered feminine, particularly in the workplace. While there have been significant advances in the feminism movement, being female is still equated with being the weaker sex. Until both males and females embrace degrees of femininity in males, there will never be full equality. That is the irony: women often conform to backwards thinking as much as men. They are allowed and sometimes encouraged to embrace degrees of masculinity, but their men better not exhibit any “feminine” traits. Perhaps it all goes back to basic stereotypical biology: males are supposed to be large and in charge, the “protectors/hunters”, and any man who dares to don anything considered feminine detracts from that ideology.
Equality has to go both ways. Otherwise it's not equal.

But women have mastered having it both ways. Sometimes being seen as small and helpless (the weather sex) is beneficial. They can tap into men's innate desire to protect and provide, much to the woman's benefit, whether she actually needed that help or not.

Feminism ends when stuff gets real. War. Manual labor. Dangerous situations. I saw a meme a while back of a woman in a very conservative dress, standing at a household kitchen sink doing dishes, while smiling happily. It read something like "feminists as world war three breaks out."
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Dust wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:51 am
Offkilter69 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:47 pm The bottom line is that there is a stigma associated with anything considered feminine, particularly in the workplace. While there have been significant advances in the feminism movement, being female is still equated with being the weaker sex. Until both males and females embrace degrees of femininity in males, there will never be full equality. That is the irony: women often conform to backwards thinking as much as men. They are allowed and sometimes encouraged to embrace degrees of masculinity, but their men better not exhibit any “feminine” traits. Perhaps it all goes back to basic stereotypical biology: males are supposed to be large and in charge, the “protectors/hunters”, and any man who dares to don anything considered feminine detracts from that ideology.
Equality has to go both ways. Otherwise it's not equal.

But women have mastered having it both ways. Sometimes being seen as small and helpless (the weather sex) is beneficial. They can tap into men's innate desire to protect and provide, much to the woman's benefit, whether she actually needed that help or not.

Feminism ends when stuff gets real. War. Manual labor. Dangerous situations. I saw a meme a while back of a woman in a very conservative dress, standing at a household kitchen sink doing dishes, while smiling happily. It read something like "feminists as world war three breaks out."
That is true. Many women play their weak female card at their convenience to avoid undesirable tasks or duties. They do want and often get the best of both worlds while men do not have that luxury. Women also can play their sexual card to get what they want, but that in turn also hinders their quest for equality and respect. There are vicious cycles on both sides of the male-female equation.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Offkilter69 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:20 am Many women play their weak female card at their convenience to avoid undesirable tasks or duties.
Men play their lovably incompetent male card for the same reason. Wash the dishes? Hell, no, I'd be sure to break something: I'd better go out and bang something loudly in the yard in a manly way.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

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Myopic Bookworm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:59 pm
Offkilter69 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:20 am Many women play their weak female card at their convenience to avoid undesirable tasks or duties.
Men play their lovably incompetent male card for the same reason. Wash the dishes? Hell, no, I'd be sure to break something: I'd better go out and bang something loudly in the yard in a manly way.
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Re: Harvard Business Review article on non-conforming men at work

Post by STEVIE »

I found this article quite amusing really.
Lets begin with the question, "What Happens when men don't conform etc"?
Well the sun will still rise tomorrow and the horses will be as calm as ever.
Actually, nothing except that the expectations surrounding menswear may just take a little knock.
As long as men toe the line and sing the party song absolutely nothing will ever change.
I cannot see that it takes a whole academic (expensive) study to see that.
One thing I did like from it is that I can now be labelled "fabulous", why not?
Certainly preferable to ****ing Weird.
For anyone new, I am actually employed by arguably the most conservative organisation in the UK and have only worn a skirt or dress in the office for the past ten years or so.
Steve.
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