The Guardian: "Men’s clothes have always been a way to unpick the locks of gender"

[MrSoapsud]

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/202 ... lie-porter

'Have you worn a tailored jacket this week? If so, you have also been wearing a skirt. Technically, jackets are skirted garments – the lower part, from the waist down, is known as “the skirt”. The tailored jackets worn by Vladimir Putin, Boris Johnson, Joe Biden: they’re pretty much long-sleeve button-front minidresses.'

Discuss!

[rode_kater]

I get where they're coming from: when drawing patterns the bottom part is based on the skirt block so I can imagine designers calling it the "skirt" of the garment.

But for me, you can't really call it a skirt (or dress) unless you can wear it without pants.

Other than that, a decent article.

[Ralph]

I never really enjoyed getting into discussions that hinge on semantics. As soon as I hear (or say) "Technically, such-and-such is true" because of some obscure fluke in literal definitions, I tune out. That extended flap that runs undernearth the sides of my car is also called a "skirt", so I suppose "technically" my car is wearing women's clothing. The Guardian is just being sophomoric with that argument.

Likewise, their stroll down memory lane has no bearing on what is and isn't standard menswear now. Yes, men used to wear much more flamboyant outfits and fabrics. Men also used to wear loincloths at some point, and codpieces at others. Trying wearing those to your office meetings now and see how much praise you get for being ahead of the fashion curve. Cultural values and expectations change over time.

That being said, the author has their own agenda at work here:

I co-run a queer rave in London called Chapter 10, which from the beginning has been actively non-gendered.

... which brings us to the common problem of cisgender straight men wearing skirts: The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both.

[Faldaguy]

by Ralph » Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:23 pm

I never really enjoyed getting into discussions that hinge on semantics. As soon as I hear (or say) "Technically, such-and-such is true" because of some obscure fluke in literal definitions, I tune out.

... which brings us to the common problem of cisgender straight men wearing skirts: The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both.

Ralph, Where does this declarative statement "The bulk of society...." come from? Do you have any surveys or stats to support this; or is it just an assumption on your part?

I sure do not get that sense when I am out and about, nor in any feedback from friends. Perhaps because I am not effeminate in others ways; nor dressed with earrings, boobs, and other typically feminine markers; or perhaps as I am married and often out with my spouse or among people who know me -- but even wandering the shops or streets of a strange city, I don't get any 'feedback' or sensation of that sort. Or, maybe it is because I really do not care a wit what they think of my gender ID or sexual orientation.

I do suspect that a large number of people [but not the bulk--as I suspect most do not notice or give it a thought] see us as 'different' or perhaps even a bit 'weird'. I have had some men express support and envy. In my head I have sometimes thought it might be fun should some chap should come up with a "What are you gay or something?" to look him in the eye and reply with "sorry, you don't appeal to me at all, but your girlfriend looks good"!

However, my own feeling is that your proclamation, "The bulk of society..." --is mostly a reflection of your own fears and ideas. I'd love to see a valid statistical survey to put this notion to rest one way or the other.

[STEVIE]

The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both.

However, my own feeling is that your proclamation, "The bulk of society..." --is mostly a reflection of your own fears and ideas. I'd love to see a valid statistical survey to put this notion to rest one way or the other.

Hi Guys,
Ralph, broadly speaking I quite agree about the assumptions that will be made by a fairly substantial section of society.
Faldaguy, you have thrown this same assertion my way in the past and what makes your experience so overwhelmingly "typical"?
Ok, no statistics but the simple fear of such prejudice is sufficient to deter many men from even trying on a skirt let alone being out in public in one.
I'm married too and I have a full beard into the bargain but I am damn sure that doesn't mean a thing in this case.
Oh by the way, I am not paranoid either but "they" are still out to get me!
Steve.

[Faldaguy]

by STEVIE » Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:59 pm

Ralph wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:23 pm
The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both.
Faldaguy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:31 pm
However, my own feeling is that your proclamation, "The bulk of society..." --is mostly a reflection of your own fears and ideas. I'd love to see a valid statistical survey to put this notion to rest one way or the other.
Hi Guys,
Ralph, broadly speaking I quite agree about the assumptions that will be made by a fairly substantial section of society.
Faldaguy, you have thrown this same assertion my way in the past and what makes your experience so overwhelmingly "typical"?
Ok, no statistics but the simple 'fear' of such prejudice is sufficient to deter many men from even trying on a skirt let alone being out in public in one.
I'm married too and I have a full beard into the bargain but I am damn sure that doesn't mean a thing in this case.
Oh by the way, I am not paranoid either but "they" are still out to get me!
Steve.

I am not disputing that "the simple fear of such prejudice is sufficient to deter many men from even trying on a skirt let alone being out in public in one" -- I do believe that the fear is real -- but unfounded. I have no way or stats to support that my sense that the public is not labeling me gay or trans. Nor can I say the places I've gone would constitute 'typical' -- but, I can offer my experience of being widely out in public as a skirted male without ever being called gay, trans, weird, fruit, or anything else as one example. I can confirm being skirted has brought a number of positive comments.

Yes, I did have palpitations the first few times. If anything, my experience has been what many on this site have also confirmed in their personally reported experiences. I offer it as a bit of power to you to surmount the fear, not as condemnation for any reticence. I do have a quibble with the assertion that "The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both." Presenting this a statement of fact only scares more men away. I suspect it is NOT a statistically valid statement -- but neither do I have any valid statistical basis to confirm or deny. I can only offer my experience, and refer to others on this site who have also spoken of their initial fears, but like me found no significant foundation when tested. So, once again, I'd love to see some valid surveys to support, deny, or challenge these assumptions. Meantime, for what it is worth, my personal experience has been that the fears were in my mind, and they were 'real' fears -- but like many fears, they were unfounded and could be overcome. The pleasures, freedom, and confidence that have followed are wonderful rewards for becoming oneself when we move past "our" fears.

[rode_kater]

The bulk of society assumes we do so because we're trans or gay or both.

As others have stated, I don't think this is true:

* Gay men don't wear skirts and aren't campaigning for it

* Trans people may wear skirts, but they are trying to pass. The whole point is that you actually think they are female. And by and large they succeed because you generally don't notice them.

So a guy in a skirt not trying to pass as female isn't going to trigger either the trans, or the gay box. I think we're in a new box that generally doesn't bother the vast majority of people.

[pelmut]

* Gay men don't wear skirts and aren't campaigning for it

True, but not always understood by a lot of people who just lump everything together under one heading.

* Trans people may wear skirts, but they are trying to pass. The whole point is that you actually think they are female. And by and large they succeed because you generally don't notice them.

That is what I have noticed since realising I am trans.  I'm not dressing any differently from before, but there must be something else that people pick up on that subconsciously tells them "Woman".  Judging from the lack of attention I attract, it must also say "B****y ugly old woman".

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

A new generation wants us to transcend gender and just see humans, and their clothes.

The money line of that article is the last.

rode_kader said,

So a guy in a skirt not trying to pass as female isn't going to trigger either the trans, or the gay box. I think we're in a new box that generally doesn't bother the vast majority of people.

This squares with my experience.

Steve said,

Ralph, broadly speaking I quite agree about the assumptions that will be made by a fairly substantial section of society.
Faldaguy, you have thrown this same assertion my way in the past and what makes your experience so overwhelmingly "typical"?
Ok, no statistics but the simple fear of such prejudice is sufficient to deter many men from even trying on a skirt let alone being out in public in one.
I'm married too and I have a full beard into the bargain but I am damn sure that doesn't mean a thing in this case.
Oh by the way, I am not paranoid either but "they" are still out to get me!

So, is it all of us collectively that "they're" out to get or just you personally?

My experience tracks exactly with Faldaguy's, but again anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. Nor are unsupported assumptions.

It's doubtful that anyone cares enough to actually run a statistically valid study on this question so, let's consider this. Participants in this forum have been very willing, if not eager, to share their experiences and the lessons they have learned from them. There are lots of us who, like Faldaguy and I, are very public with our skirt wearing, continue to do so and keep saying, 'Jump on in; the water's fine!'

By contrast, how many people have said, "I don't know what planet those guys live on but, the reality is this: If you go out in public in one of your skirts, you'll have so many people tell you you're gay you're going to start doubting your sexual orientation!' '? Answer ... NONE!

Seven years ago dresses and skirts became my usual attire. In that time I had exactly one person ask me if I was gay. Before I could answer he followed up with, "I'll bet you get asked that a lot." Which gave me the perfect opening, "No, I'm not and you're the only one who's asked me that!"

Three years ago, I started letting my hair grow out and consistently wearing makeup when I leave my apartment. A few months ago, just to get some confirmation, I asked a close long-time friend of mine if she ever felt she was interacting with a woman when I'm around her. She said, "When you get out of your car and start walking up my drive, I see a woman. As soon as you start talking, I hear a man," and doesn't get any sense she's dealing with anyone other than the man she's known for 40-some years.

That said, I now get called "Ma'am" sometimes and some of those times I'm sure it was because the other person was trying to be respectful of what they assumed was a transwoman. So be it. I'm glad so many people are trying to be that respectful of others. But before I had my hair restored at Hair Club I NEVER got mistaken for a woman. People always called me "Sir" with the usual amount of respect.

Bottom line: There's no factual reason to believe that anyone assumes you're gay and in the case of those of you who wear facial hair, have pronounced bald spots or don't wear your hair long, no factual reason to think anyone's going to mistake you for being a transwoman. Even if they do, WHAT OF IT?! They're not going to treat you much differently.


I qualify that last sentence because awhile ago an associate at the superstore where I do the bulk of my shopping asked, "Ma'am? Could I help you find something?"

Figuring it wasn't worth the bother to correct him, I told him I was looking for blades for my utility knife. Because he thought I was a woman and couldn't possibly be looking for anything but a handicraft knife blade, he took me to the right aisle, but the wrong side of it. Then he apologized for not having blades and only having complete knives.

Not seeing either the blades I needed or utility knives I asked him what he meant. So, he took down an Xacto knife. When I finally got across to him what I meant he took me across the aisle and sure enough, there was a package of utility knife blades.

He asked if there was anything else he could help me with. I demurred because I was so furious that in another second I would have used one of those blades to slit his throat!

I later turned the incident into a Facebook post explaining how I had just gained additional empathy for women who face that kind of nonsense on a daily basis.

But again, look at the most recent pictures I've posted here and remember that with my glasses or a Covid mask on, I look that much more feminine. As best as I can tell, almost none of you are going to run into the misidentifications that I do. So please, stop being a prisoner of your fears. As Faldaguy said, you won't believe how much happier you will be once you go out in public as your authentic self.

[JeffB1959]

So a guy in a skirt not trying to pass as female isn't going to trigger either the trans, or the gay box. I think we're in a new box that generally doesn't bother the vast majority of people.

Well, I for one am glad to be in that particular box. Since I wear women's clothing from head to toe on my outings, including heels, earrings and a purse to boot, one might assume I’m in transition, but, I’ve never been asked if I’m gay, something I consider being not just an incorrect assumption, but a stereotype as well.