Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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JeffB1959
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by JeffB1959 »

Given the depth of toxic masculinity in today's society, it takes big time balls for a guy to venture out in public wearing a skirt or dress. I remember the first time I wore a skirt, I was nervous as hell at first, feeling the eyes of the world focused on me, and it took some time to calm down and enjoy the experience.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Stu »

"Given the depth of toxic masculinity in today's society"
I wish my friends on here would stop parroting this misandric feminist claptrap about "toxic masculinity.

Masculinity is an innate quality of about half of the human population and there is nothing toxic about it any more than there is something toxic about femininity. Men are entitled to wear skirts just as women are entitled to wear trousers, yet we see resistance from partners of men on here to that. Just imagine the uproar and condemnation if a husband tried to ban his wife from wearing trousers.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by crfriend »

Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:13 pmI wish my friends on here would stop parroting this misandric feminist claptrap about "toxic masculinity.
I'm with Stu on this one. We -- of all people -- should not be lending credence to that fallacious term. Simply using it strengthens and perpetuates its own toxic message.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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I really thought that we had this one put to bed.
My wife bears out the fact that most women broadly are okay with a guy in a skirt except for their "nearest and dearest"
Ironically, my most vocal supporters have been female and from very diverse backgrounds too.
The guys have been much more lukewarm and on occasion hostile.
Could it be that the concept of masculinity has become toxic to these individuals?
I don't rightly believe that feminism is to blame for such displays of basic insecurity and aggression .
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Bodycon »

crfriend wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:14 pm
Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:13 pmI wish my friends on here would stop parroting this misandric feminist claptrap about "toxic masculinity.
I'm with Stu on this one. We -- of all people -- should not be lending credence to that fallacious term. Simply using it strengthens and perpetuates its own toxic message.
The problem is that these people do exist. The number of rape, sexual assault, harassment, trafficking of women for the sex trade and misogynistic behaviour never seems to decrease despite us being in the 21st century. There are of course crazy women as well, but far fewer and far less of a physical threat to men. We still have those animal characteristics of hunting, imposing our will and fighting which is played out by animals on the plains of Africa, or by good ol' boys every time someone cuts them up on the road.

Only when women are no longer scared of going out alone and being harassed, or worse, will men be able to express themselves as equals and not viewed with suspicion. It is sad to say that men are generalised by the worst behaved of the species and those toxic men are also those picking on what would be seen as outsiders of the species, be that LBGTQ (etc.) or those wearing a skirt.

I was out for a walk the other night along a cycle path, as I neared home it was getting dark; as I approached two women from behind, I found myself making sure they heard me by scuffing my boots and switched my torch on so they saw me too. I shouldn't have to do that, but I feel that I need to do that both for their sake and mine. If toxic males didn't exist, I wouldn't need to.

Dismiss toxic masculinity at your peril. We need to drive it out of society, not just for women, but also for ourselves.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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Bodycon wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:29 pm Dismiss toxic masculinity at your peril. We need to drive it out of society, not just for women, but also for ourselves.
I'm not sure we are dismissing the term so much as saying it is abused and misused and applied to all males all the time. Instead of labeling abusive behavior as ABUSIVE and incompatible with modern life, we simply blame all men and in essence tell them "that's your nature, you can't help yourself". No, that isn't MY nature, and no male directly in my life behaves that way towards women*.


*sigh, I don't know what happens in people's private lives, outside of when I'm not around, so I can only go by my interactions with them on occasion.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by crfriend »

This:
Coder wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:04 pmI'm not sure we are dismissing the term so much as saying it is abused and misused and applied to all males all the time. Instead of labeling abusive behavior as ABUSIVE and incompatible with modern life, we simply blame all men and in essence tell them "that's your nature, you can't help yourself". No, that isn't MY nature, and no male directly in my life behaves that way towards women*.
sums it up beautifully. Normal men do not abuse women; healthy men do not abuse women (nor do they abuse each other). It's a tiny subset of the population that does, and that needs to be called out for what it is: Aberrant and sick behaviour. Labelling each and every man on the planet as being "toxic" by virtue of the reproductive equipment he was born with is slander on men and masculinity both -- and is profoundly unhelpful in the effort to stamp out abusive behaviours.

Masculinity and empathy are not incompatible in any way; neither are masculinity and sensitivity. That it's being beaten into us -- as men -- that they are, because we're "toxic", is profoundly hurtful and serves no purpose whatsoever.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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Bodycon wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:29 pm The problem is that these people do exist. The number of rape, sexual assault, harassment, trafficking of women for the sex trade and misogynistic behaviour never seems to decrease despite us being in the 21st century. There are of course crazy women as well, but far fewer and far less of a physical threat to men.
Where is your evidence that women on average behave better than men? They absolutely don't. Certainly, they may be less likely to engage in physical violence, but they more than make up for it in other ways, as former feminists like Erin Pizzey and Professor Janice Fiamengo have documented. They may be less of a physical threat to men, but that's only because they are less physically able to take on men in that way.

When women behave badly, people never accuse them of having "toxic femininity" - nor should they. There is nothing masculine about"rape, sexual assault, harassment, trafficking of women for the sex trade and misogynistic behaviour" - quite the reverse. Similarly, there is nothing inherently feminine about murdering babies as we have seen in the UK by nurses or teachers sexually abusing teenage boys. These behaviours are just bad behaviour by human beings.

Both masculinity and femininity are traditionally seen as both natural and positive traits. There is nothing worse than men who have allowed themselves to fall for the misandric narratives of a small section of radical feminists who are intent upon vilifying men as part of their wider goal of seeking advantage for themselves and their sex, portraying them as eternal victims while we males are demonised.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Bodycon »

Coder wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:04 pm I'm not sure we are dismissing the term so much as saying it is abused and misused and applied to all males all the time.
Not sure who the "we" are in Coders post, however dismissal is in other posts on this subject.
crfriend wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:59 pm Labelling each and every man on the planet as being "toxic" by virtue of the reproductive equipment he was born with is slander on men and masculinity both -- and is profoundly unhelpful in the effort to stamp out abusive behaviours.
The term can only exist if there is someone to label it with. I don't see that all men are labelled with this by all women, just a fanatical minority with an axe (or maybe an ex) to grind, however the more women who find a voice to tell of their ordeals at the hands of predators and abusers the more it will be said. That cleansing will be painful for all men. The Me Too movement has momentum and is exposing an undercurrent in society which has been hidden for too long. Men are now afraid to be men because of a minority, yet do little to stand against that minority and leave it to the fanatical feminists to dictate the agenda creating a vicious circle of toxicity rhetoric. Burying heads in the sand with a moan about being tarred with the same brush as idiots and fools, but not offering any insight as to how we may turn the tide both in terms of perpetration and the subsequent removal of the term itself, leaves us all open to criticism.

Every schoolboy as pinched the bottom of a girl or wanted to, made sexual comment and been slapped or gone a bit too far behind the bike sheds. That is growing up and when you grow up you (I) look back, both with a grin because you (I) did it, but also with a frown because you shouldn't have. That, for the coming generations, is what is at stake, being able to grow up, learn the boundaries and become a man. If we are not careful we will be locked into a completely feminist agenda at school, at work and socially.

I don't know the answer, however toxic or uber masculinity affects us (all men whether in skirts or not) too. Maybe we start with a conversation with SO's and friends, understand, sympathise and make a stand where necessary.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Bodycon »

Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:53 pm Where is your evidence that women on average behave better than men?
I didn't state that they did, just that they were less of a threat to men and less likely to carry out sexually orientated crimes, which is borne out by simply looking at any newspaper or channel.
Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:53 pm When women behave badly, people never accuse them of having "toxic femininity" - nor should they.
Well, maybe "they" should. This will become a battleground, rather than moaning about being called toxic, fight fire with fire and level the terminology playing field. Moan and do nothing is doomed to failure.
Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:53 pm there is nothing inherently feminine about murdering babies as we have seen in the UK by nurses or teachers sexually abusing teenage boys. These behaviours are just bad behaviour by human beings.
Agreed, but you are missing the point. Acts, sexual and abusive, perpetrated by men against women on an almost daily basis are what causes the term toxic masculinity to be used, not for murders by loonies or the few and far between cases of child abuse, which simply are what they are, but systemic behaviour by a minority of men.
Stu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:53 pm Both masculinity and femininity are traditionally seen as both natural and positive traits. There is nothing worse than men who have allowed themselves to fall for the misandric narratives of a small section of radical feminists who are intent upon vilifying men as part of their wider goal of seeking advantage for themselves and their sex, portraying them as eternal victims while we males are demonised.
Also agreed, however you also make my point for me, this is about a small number of women using terminology as a weapon against all men because of a small number of men. They could not use that weapon if a problem did not exist. A problem exists!

Remove the problem, remove the weapon.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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Bodycon wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:09 pm Every schoolboy as pinched the bottom of a girl or wanted to, made sexual comment and been slapped or gone a bit too far behind the bike sheds.
Speak for yourself. That behaviour hasn't been acceptable behaviour for decades now. I'm sure there are groups that do this, but "every schoolboy" is huge stretch.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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rode_kater wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:38 am Speak for yourself. That behaviour hasn't been acceptable behaviour for decades now. I'm sure there are groups that do this, but "every schoolboy" is huge stretch.
Speaking for myself and yes, decades ago, I was that schoolboy.
The fact that it as seen as "unacceptable" now, most certainly does not mean that it doesn't go on.
Bear in mind too, that girls can be willing participants too and coercion may come from them!
Only thing I'd maybe disagree with is "every", there are always some exceptions to prove the rule.
The kids make their own rules and adults can really do little about it.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Bodycon »

rode_kater wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:38 am Speak for yourself. That behaviour hasn't been acceptable behaviour for decades now. I'm sure there are groups that do this, but "every schoolboy" is huge stretch.
Acceptable or not, I suspect it still goes on.

I would imagine that ALMOST (happy now? :D ) every hetreosexual, hormonally challenged, adolescent spotty schoolboy has, at least wanted to pinch the bottom of a girl as I said, and in adding wanted to in my quoted post, so accepted that not every boy would follow through.

Yes, that was a long time ago for me and the point was to show that boys can grow into men, put that behind them (tenuous pun) and have more respect for the female of the species.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

Post by Ray »

There’s masculinity, which is fine by itself. There’s toxic masculinity which isn’t.

There’s driving which is fine by itself.
There’s dangerous driving which isn’t.
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Re: Metro: Sean Penn is wrong – men who wear skirts are brave, not cowards

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Ray wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:43 pmThere’s driving which is fine by itself.
There’s dangerous driving which isn’t.
The problem appears in the way that the term is bandied about and because it can only apply to 1/2 (roughly) of the population.

There's a reason I make a distinction between masculinity and machismo.
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