Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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JennC03
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by JennC03 »

Bodycon wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:59 am
JennC03 wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:26 am
Who in the hell do you think you are bashing my husband? You don't know the kind man he is.You think coming on here insulting him saying he isn't grown for a discussion makes you a big shot? A grown man wouldn't sit here and argue like you're doing in a forum just because my husband expressed himself.It's people like you I question with the real problem not Moon.
I didn't come on here to insult him, but he took offense anyway; because that is what he does ALL THE TIME!

a GROWN MAN wouldn't sit there constantly having a Tizzy every time someone disagrees with him, but would put forward reasons why their argument is correct and yours is wrong. He is incapable of that. I take no pleasure from saying that, but having researched the forum and the many similar posts, that is the only conclusion to come to.

I also note that you spring to his defence, each time, without questioning whether he is right or wrong, which is partly admirable and partly sad.

The blame someone else culture (for you are never wrong) is wearing rather thin....


First off I never said whether he was right or wrong I said you don't have to go to personally attacking him with insults.Some on this forums act like they own Moon and I'm tired of it.I'm his wife been with him 20 years and seen him go through a lot of course I'm going to defend him especially when someone results to insulting him.

You want a discussion? Treat him how you'd want to be treated and then maybe he will have a discussion with you he doesn't work on insults.

Moon likes debatable discussions believe it or not but when you make the responses you do above that pisses him off and he dismisses you because who would want a discussion with someone who lowers to insulting and calling names? I sure wouldn't.

It's not sad to defend my husband either.
Last edited by JennC03 on Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by Ray »

I don’t think I’ve ever exchanged cross words with Moon. Just saying.
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by JennC03 »

Ray wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:19 am
I don’t think I’ve ever exchanged cross words with Moon. Just saying.
You haven't I'm referring to the ones who pick fights with Moon because he expresses himself.
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by moonshadow »

Alright, this is getting out of hand. Lets cease now before the thread gets locked.

Bodycon, after 20 years, yes, my wife springs to my defense when she feels someone is quarreling with me, just as I do with her.

But let's strip this down to the nuts and bolts of what the issue actually is:

Two random people who don't even know each other are disagreeing on the internet. I make it a point to lose no sleep over these type of things. I could sit here and make my defense and call out your errors, or I could yield, claim you are completely correct [0], but what's the point either way? The lines are drawn at this point. I've seen enough nasty arguments to know that nobody ever really "wins" these things.

I posted a comment about gender, you called it nonsense, I called your comment rude, you called me a princess [1]. It's almost getting comical at this point.

This is stupid. You walk away, I'll walk away, or don't. I'm not wasting anymore time on some ridiculous internet fight.

[0] For some odd reason, saying I have "Princess Syndrome" didn't bother me. But at any rate, I am what I am, and I know what I am, imperfections and all, and I don't worry about the judgements cast from strangers, after all, if I did, I probably wouldn't be wearing skirts in Appalachia.

[1] I like that... I think for a while I'll go by Princess Moon. :lol:
-MS
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

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Updates made...
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-MS
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by Bodycon »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:56 pm
Alright, this is getting out of hand. Lets cease now before the thread gets locked.
Blue or red thread lock?

Yes, lets. If you read my original post, you will see that it was meant as a response to a post that did not make sense to me, hence non sense and even a sorry beforehand. I was shocked at your retort to me.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:56 pm
Bodycon, after 20 years, yes, my wife springs to my defense when she feels someone is quarreling with me, just as I do with her.
That's fine, but maybe (just now and then) she could call you out too? Ok, well, probably not....
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by JennC03 »

Bodycon wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:56 pm
Alright, this is getting out of hand. Lets cease now before the thread gets locked.
Blue or red thread lock?

Yes, lets. If you read my original post, you will see that it was meant as a response to a post that did not make sense to me, hence non sense and even a sorry beforehand. I was shocked at your retort to me.
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:56 pm
Bodycon, after 20 years, yes, my wife springs to my defense when she feels someone is quarreling with me, just as I do with her.
That's fine, but maybe (just now and then) she could call you out too? Ok, well, probably not....

You both were wrong.

Moon will tell you I will call him out just like I will anyone else.

What upset me is on both ends resulting to name calling.I figured you both would act a bit more mature than you were being.Just my two cents worth.
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by moonshadow »

Bodycon wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
Yes, lets. If you read my original post, you will see that it was meant as a response to a post that did not make sense to me, hence non sense and even a sorry beforehand. I was shocked at your retort to me.
It sounds like I just took something written in the wrong context.

So then, let's get back to the topic at hand....
I want to add that I think humanity assigning gender to inanimate things can be considered a good thing....It's what makes life interesting, entertaining, and gives life extra value. Without our concepts of gender, we'd just be a punch of hunter-gatherer primates, grunting at each other, living to the ripe old age of 20.
Sorry Moon, this is nonsense. Gender assignation is nothing to do with gender, but is just a patronising expression. A car is a car, a door is a door etc. if it entertains you fair enough, but it doesn't make you any different to a chimpanzee. Any town or city will have 20odd year old's standing around conversing in grunts on any given day, so we have not come far, if at all......
Based on your response, I think the point my original comment was lost.

A car is a car, a door is a door etc.

Yes that is true, but that's not the point. People do indeed assign gendered characteristics to a wide variety of items, things, and sometimes even places. For example, nations (a place) are often referred to in the feminine. We do assign gender to vehicles, machines, computers, etc. And the overall point I was trying to make is that over the last thousand years or so, we have created culture (in the west) based on the principles of masculine superiority and feminine beauty. As for how all this relates to the animal kingdom, well, I can't say for absolute certainty that animals do not experience and express gender, but all evidence seems to indicate that if they do, it is not in the same manner that humans do. Perhaps they do, but it's just something we can't understand as we are not the actual animals in question. I personally believe most wild animals live mostly out of instinct rather than refined cognitive ability. At least I've never known a wild animal to create a religion, ponder the universe, build a complex machine, or blast a giant phallic symbol into low orbit.
Organised religions are based around a pyramid of power with (insert your chosen god(s)) at the top, then the leaders (insert, pope, prophet, king etc.) and so on down to the proletariat. Based around male dominance, because in those times males were dominant, and all based around controlling populations.
You're looking at religion as a political machine. You are correct of course, however you're missing the underlying point of what religion is supposed to be and what it represents. Which is a subject that could fill a library, and I'd do it little justice to even try to explain it here, nor do I really understand most of it anyway.

Yes, it is true that for many, many people, religion is a business, or a at least a means to retain power. Indeed that is probably the driving force behind most modern major organized religions. But you're dismissing what religion means and what it is at its core. At its very heart, religion exist for humankind to help understand the universe around us. Early humans took notice of the movement of the stars, the migration habits of the wild animals, the changing of the seasons, and yes, the obvious differences between male and female humans. As the aeons passed by, we gradually formed societies, hierarchies, and religions to help us wrap our mind around the world we lived in, as well as to provide some order for these societies.

You can look at just about any religion and see references to the masculine and the feminine. We can dismiss these as religious gobbledygook, but we short change ourselves in doing so. We lose sight of a very important part of our humanity when we dismiss this. Gender and the masculine/feminine spectrum may not have been understood to ancient philosophers and religious leaders as it is today, but the seeds of such were well in the ground and starting to grow.

One matter that sticks out in my head in my Protestant upbringing is how "the church" has been considered the "Bride of Christ", so as to imply that "the church" (the people that make up the church) are along the feminine aspect, Christ is along the masculine aspect (and likely the kind of "masculine" that Carl would approve of), and finally the Godhead which modern Christians believe to be "God the Father", but in all actuality was likely an entity without gender in the old Hebrew tradition. [0] Some have taken this "the Church being the Bride of Christ" to signify how "the church",being composed of ordinary sinners and people trying to do right by God may be considered what they view to be "feminine", and that view is one of submission, silliness, prone to error and folly. Note however that I shouldn't be taken as an authority on the matter. The fact is that there are thousands upon thousands of interpretations of the Judea-Christian religion. There is also the belief that Christ represents the masculine and the Holy Spirit represents the Feminine, and the Godhead is clearly without gender, or rather may be whatever gender the worshipper needs at the moment, as indicated in stories such as "The Shack" [1]. Finally, there are the hardnosed Christians that believe that every aspect of the Christian faith is hyper-masculine. We have a lot of those around here in Appalachia.

Now over the centuries, it's my personal speculation that one of the reasons modern day Wicca, in addition to the old ways of "witchcraft" (as understood through the middle ages onward), was that a woman who was in command of her own life, free spirited, and didn't live her life for the pleasure of men was regarded as a "witch", and many were executed and/or tormented on account of it. Thus, overtime the witchcraft of centuries past become the modern feminist movement, and this old witchcraft (leading to newer modern day religious movements such as "Wicca") hatched out of this persecution and downplaying of anything feminine. The Witch was seen as powerful to the point of being Satanic, and an obvious threat to the patriarchy so carefully crafted by thousands of years of Abrahamic tradition.

This is not to say that all feminist are witches, or vice versa. But I am saying that if you were to ask many Christians in my region, feminist and witch go hand in hand.

There are other examples too, gender is widely explored in eastern traditions (or so I'm told), however I've not spent anywhere near as much time studying these traditions as those in my own region for obvious reasons. Hinduism, the worlds oldest religion apparently has a lot to say about gender.
None of this gender / masculinity or religion is of any relevance to skirts, which simply went out of fashion for males, pushed by Victorian Social Etiquette and prudery. As clothes became cheaper even toddler boys were dressed in trousers. Where we are now, we can agree on. Men (for the most part) see skirts as womenswear and won't touch them.
The point is, I must disagree that none of this ties into skirts being feminine. Now you yourself may not see it as so, but as I told Carl, you two are already over the "hangup" of skirts being just a piece of fabric. You have to put yourself in the mind of the masses. Centuries ago, yes, men in various cultures did wear masculine skirts, tunics, robes, etc. But over the last 1000-1500 years, men have gravitated towards a more masculine dress including, but not limited to various forms of trousers, and women gravitated towards more feminine dresses, skirts, etc. As time progressed, these different styles of clothing evolved to a point where one is clearly for men and the other is clearly for women, and we built a society, again, based on Abrahamic patriarchy that reinforces this. It is only in the last couple of decades that men have at least had the freedom to wear feminine clothes without fear of arrest of physical harm, but I believe we still have a LOOOOOOONG way to go before the stigma of femininity goes away, and it is my opinion that skirts will never be fully accepted as mens wear until that stigma ceases.

So I hope I've helped shed more light on my line of thought, not to be mistaken as fact, again, just my ever-evolving understanding of the world in which I live.

Much Love,

-The Lunar[tic] Princess. :wink:

[0] See "Old Testament Wisdom" by Manly Palmer Hall
[1] Good book by the way.
-MS
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by john62 »

I believe this gender thing goes back 2000 years to the Romans, in Latin all nouns are gendered eg the word for dog is masculine, cat is femin., boat is fem., the word for war is neutral, we can blame the Romans for this mess.

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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by Grok »

One of the few things I remember from French class decades ago....the language assigns a masculine or feminine gender to most anything. English is different in that fews things are assigned a gender.
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by Coder »

Grok wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:08 pm
One of the few things I remember from French class decades ago....the language assigns a masculine or feminine gender to most anything. English is different in that fews things are assigned a gender.
I often wondered about that - I took french in high school and “gender” added a layer of complication to learning a language - I already had a hard enough time with english :P
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

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I read somewhere, and I apologize but the source escapes me, but there was an interpretation of scripture that seemed to indicate that in [the Abrahamic] God's eyes, all humans were feminine.

The thinking went that the God of the universe is so masculine that all mortal humans are vastly feminine by comparison, or in other words, we're all just a bunch of women.

Now I personally view this is just more patriarchal b.s. There isn't a human alive, and I assume there never has been, that can even state for certain if there even is a "creator entity" much less what gender that entity may be.

But it's still an interesting story, and further illustrates how gender and the masculine/feminine spectrum is TIGHTLY woven into the human experience.
-MS
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by moonshadow »

Oh... here it is (turns out Google is my friend...)

Why does the Bible refer to God in masculine terms?

-snip-
God is never described with sexual characteristics in the Scriptures, but He does consistently describe Himself in the masculine gender.

Now I remember how I found this the first time. I was contemplating the Christian tradition in relation to transgender theory, and stumbled into this...

I found it interesting how a creator of the universe, that apparently lacks biological sex can even have a gender. Of course, my actual belief is that this is all a cultural story, but it's still fascinating. I plunged some deep questions that night... such as "what is the gender of the soul?" among other questions, but I digress.

Anyway, below is the exact source:
-snip-
One famous Christian scholar, C. S. Lewis, has suggested that gender is far deeper than our human distinctions reveal. He suggests that God is so masculine that we all are feminine in relation to Him.
-MS
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by Dust »

moonshadow wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:14 pm
Fellas, skirts will never hit mainstream for men until femininity is destigmatized the world over.

Right now culture is way too macho for that and many people (men and women alike) don't want to be seen in something considered feminine. And skirts are feminine, whether we want to admit it or not. They have been so for at least 1500 years, and that's a lot of culture to change... it may take centuries if ever.

Now I know many here will disagree with me on this [skirts being feminine], but consider what I'm saying here... skirts may not be feminine to you, the skirtcafe member shaking his head right now... but you are already in a skirt. We're talking about getting the rest of the men in our culture to wear a skirt, and 99% of those men believe the skirt to be a feminine garment, and men are not to be feminine!

You're not going to change that until a big chunk of those men are willing to express a little femininity. I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

Take comfort though, throughout history there have even men who weren't afraid to express femininity, it was only in the last couple of decades that this very expression finally became legal, and in the last few years it became socially tolerated. Not accepted, but tolerated. And that's good enough for me. It's a hell of a time to be alive!

Kilts are an obvious exception to this, but then again I assume we're talking about non-kilt skirts...
Quite a few things there to disagree with.

First, skirts are not necessarily feminine. The fact that by the end you qualify "non-kilt skirts" process my point. Kilts can be seen as the most masculine garment there is. Other examples of masculine un-bifurcated clothing include the ceremonial and traditional garb of so many cultures, from a caftan to a cassock (both technically dresses), and definitely identified with men by anyone with much awareness. If such a thing as a masculine skirt or dress exists, even if it's extremely limited and unusual, then a gender neutral skirt can exist (towel around the waist at the pool or a sarong at the beach anyone?). And even the women's skirts that people are familiar with range from arguably feminine only because it's a skirt, to extremely feminine. So it is a full range that is at least possible, even if there exist large gaps on that spectrum in terms of what is presently available.

I don't think feminity is as stigmatized as you think it is. Or really ever was (at least until feminists told women it was bad). Women have been held on a pedestal. Protected, cherished, and provided for, simply because they are women. Men have to earn their status as men by their actions. Women are valued for their feminity, men in spite of their masculinity, if they can prove themselves to be worth anything at all. Until we value all people as human beings, instead of valuing one half of society for what they do, while valuing the other for simply being, we will have a problem. Until then, men who emulate women will be seen as shirking their duties and trying to claim from women that which is not rightfully theirs.

Lastly (and maybe this is splitting hairs), I don't think it's been 1500 years since skirts became primarily feminine. Look at pictures of male nobles from before the French Revolution. Skirts, heels, hose, bold colors, luxurious fabrics, etc. (I think the end of male fashion occurred then, not with the industrial revolution, as others have said.)
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Re: Vogue: How Men’s Fashion Changed for the Better This Year

Post by moonshadow »

Dust wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:42 am
First, skirts are not necessarily feminine
Dust, you're overlooking my point. They are not feminine... to you.

Now go sample a hundred or so typical [non-skirt wearing] men and ask them if they think skirts are feminine. Now we're taking just regular "off the peg" skirts here... no kilts, no caftans, sarongs, these are traditional skirts for specific roles.

Sure I'd wager a few might say "no", but the vast majority will probably say yes.

In fact, I will participate in this experiment, and I'd like to encourage any member reading this to do the same... Get a notebook, and ask around a hundred people (50/50 male female mix) of they believe skirts are feminine.

Don't argue with them or try to change their mind... just a simple "yes or no" answer. Then log the results.

Anyway, I've already penned rebuttals to a lot of what you've posted in subsequent comments on this thread. In it I explore the discussion in depth.

But as I stated, as this is a website for skirt wearing men who do so in the masculine context, I fully expect disagreement. But the rest of the world doesn't care about our hangups over the masculine ego.

They're not going to wear skirts because they view skirts as feminine folly for guys. That's the way it's been for a long long time, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
-MS
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