Another Daily Mail rant

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
rivegauche
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Another Daily Mail rant

Post by rivegauche »

This article appeared in the Mail on Sunday last Sunday

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... r-comments

The writer was trying on clothes in Zara and there were no cubicles free so she changed within the fitting room space but not in an actual fitting room. She stripped to her bra just as two men passed her carrying women's clothes they had been trying on. Apparently this is the end of the world. The comments are what you would expect from Daily Mail readers. Even though the writer said the men had shown no interest in her some comments are from women who said they would have screamed.

Some of the comments pointed out that she was the one who had been exposing herself in a public area. I tried posting a comment pointing out that it wasn't the women's fitting room. It was a fitting room for people who wanted to try on clothing sold on that floor, to see if they fit and suit them. Gender does not come into it. If fitting rooms have proper curtains where is the problem? Screaming at people who have made no threat is mentally unbalanced. Needless to say my comments did not appear.

I have tried on clothes in fitting rooms supposedly for women hundreds of times when dressed as a man, often in shops that only sell so-called womenswear, without anyone on the staff or a customer making any remarks at all. It is extremely rare to encounter a shop that refuses to allow this, and now even shops that have male changing areas such as Next, John Lewis (and, when they existed, Debenhams) just direct you to the fitting room on the same floor as the garments came from. I buy most of my clothes in boutiques, and I buy a LOT. In the last decade, I have only been prevented from trying on clothes twice, once in a boutique I Edinburgh called Avanti, and the other called Stons in Stirling. Bizarrely, the latter also sold male clothing.

I think we can dismiss this as yet more hysteria from the Daily Mail about non-events. Apparently open-mindedness on the part of shops who want to shift merchandise and turn a profit by catering for a market that clearly exists means the world is going to hell in a handcart.
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denimini
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by denimini »

rivegauche wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:19 am
I think we can dismiss this as yet more hysteria from the Daily Mail about non-events.
Thanks, saved me checking the link ............... in fact I wonder why you decided to start this thread.

It will only cause more indignation (and probably indigestion) to at least one member here.
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rivegauche
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by rivegauche »

denimini wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:38 am
rivegauche wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:19 am
I think we can dismiss this as yet more hysteria from the Daily Mail about non-events.
Thanks, saved me checking the link ............... in fact I wonder why you decided to start this thread.

It will only cause more indignation (and probably indigestion) to at least one member here.
Because I found it interesting reading even if I thought it was the work of a dinosaur. Sometimes you want to witness the traditionalists getting into a panic about people like us, as long as it doesn't happen in person - and for most of us it doesn't. Witnessing Daily Mail readers going apoplectic is better than blood sports.
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Coder »

While I am for separate spaces for both sexes/genders in these intimate settings, I will say a lot of her outrage is on her for changing OUTSIDE of the designated changing booth (flimsy curtain or not). If the two "men" had accosted her, made lewd comments, or otherwise acted inappropriate towards her, I could totally understand her outrage. Also, at least in this incident, there were many women around, so if the men had tried something bad (again, here we go again blaming the men first), she would have had witnesses and possible other women would would have come to her aid. But again, men=deviants lest we forget.

After reading through the article and comments, my thoughts:

Zara should better-define what their changing room policies are so shoppers are aware of who can use the rooms. It sounds like they have polities that vary from store to store, and they aren't clearly posted.

If you are a guy buying women's clothes as a guy... use the bloody men's changing rooms! Just because it's on a different floor, so what? Unless policy forbids trying on clothes from a different floor, it feels like the onus is on the one trying on clothes to be uncomfortable (ie, some embarrassment amongst male peers) when it differs from norms. Are women's spaces that different? Are their mirrors magical in some way?

It gets tricky when trans issues are involved - who's feelings do you accommodate, and who's feelings you ignore. My general rule is you err on the side of majority rule, keep things strictly separated, and provision a unisex space. It may make a trans person feel "othered" if done improperly, but it also let's everyone feel safe.

This kind of problem could be solved if they just had a row of locked booths, but that would be too expensive for a retailer like Zara, I presume.
rode_kater
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by rode_kater »

I don't think I've come across gendered changing rooms. Are they different in some way? Seems like the requirements are the same no matter who is doing the changing and what the clothes are.
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Stu
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Stu »

To me, the matter is wholly dependent on the construction of the fitting room. I have seen such rooms that are essentially enclosed cubicles with hangers and mirrors and there is no reason why they shouldn't be unisex. If the best they have is a curtain, then I don't think it should be unisex and the fitting rooms should be in separate areas. I am hugely self-conscious if a female is around when I am trying on a garment and I can glimpse or hear a female a few feet away - and for the same reason I don't want females of ANY age in the men's public changing rooms, shower areas or toilets. Women are entitled to their privacy and I am entitled to mine.
rivegauche
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by rivegauche »

In my comment on the article (axed by the Daily Mail) I made the point that they are not women's fitting rooms. They are fitting rooms for people who want to try on the clothes. I do not select the changing room to use - the staff do - I always ask - I don't just walk into the fitting rooms. I have twice been asked to use the male fitting rooms - ironically once in Zara but generally staff actually prefer you to use the fitting room nearest to the merchandise you are trying so that different sizes are readily accessible if needed. In the UK most large shops have dedicated fitting rooms for departments, which Daily Mail readers interpret as gender-specific. There have always been shops like Outfit (now gone) and White Stuff that sell to all genders and just have one set of fitting rooms. Chains like Phase Eight and Hobbs (two of my favourites) do not market to males but are very happy for men to try on their goods. There is no 'male' option for fitting rooms in these shops. One local independent boutique directs me to a large room with lots of mirrors "where I will be more comfortable" and they are dead right - much better changing facilities than the wimmin get! The way that the market is going, with young people becoming more gender fluid and many older men becoming more confident about trying on skirts and dresses before buying them, it is only a matter of time until fitting rooms become officially gender neutral, or gender neutral ones are an option in large stores.

If men are uneasy about trying on clothes in the vicinity of women then they should seek their own solution. I am comfortable with that situation and I have yet to encounter any customer who had a problem with me using a fitting room. All cubicles should give complete privacy - but that is a separate issue.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Fred in Skirts »

I have been using changing rooms in women's departments for years now and have not had any problems. Most are divided up into cubes and some have heavy curtains, others have saloon doors, while others have full doors on them. I have been in one that just had cubes and no doors in a woman's department store. Still no problems there either.

In the article the headline is very miss leading and actually is a down right lie.
Why WERE two 6ft men allowed in my Zara changing room as I stood there in a bra?
Well it wasn't HER changing room, she was in the public area of the dressing rooms.
I did not read much further into the article after I realized it was just a puff piece to try to incite a riot in the comments section of this rag.
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rode_kater
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by rode_kater »

rivegauche wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 pm
In the UK most large shops have dedicated fitting rooms for departments, [...]
This is probably the difference. The majority of clothing stores here are <80m2, they don't have the space to do fancy things with fitting rooms. One chain (HEMA) tends not to have fitting rooms at all, but they've basically had the same clothing sizes since forever, so if you know what size you are there you never need to fit anyway. Otherwise you can just do it at home and return it later if it doesn't fit.

And I suppose it's something you get used to. Europe in general has a much more relaxed view of the birthday suit. Everybody has one after all. It's not like you're taking off your underwear, so there's nothing to see that you wouldn't see at a swimming pool.
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Stu
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Stu »

rivegauche wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 pm
If men are uneasy about trying on clothes in the vicinity of women then they should seek their own solution. I am comfortable with that situation and I have yet to encounter any customer who had a problem with me using a fitting room.
Many people are unhappy trying on clothes in the vicinity of the opposite sex; the Daily Mail is highlighting that unhappiness - see the comments, but only apparently from the perspective of women. I don't know where the idea seems to have come from that males aren't bothered about women and girls entering their spaces. I can remember a gym I belonged to which had "ladies" and "mixed" only sessions until we complained and men's sessions were created. The women were still allowed entry in the men's sessions, but were restricted to working out in one particular room - and asked not to use the sauna. Some young women who were regulars from a local ballet company tried to disregard that request and use the sauna on men's days until a couple of guys (me included) asked them to leave and complained to the staff. It worked and signs were put on specifying that the saunas were single-sex only. Just imagine if I had walked into the sauna at a women's session!

Personal privacy and dignity applies for both sexes.
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denimini
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by denimini »

I have never been in a store with a gendered changing room. It makes no sense as there could be women waiting and empty male units. One store had a single entry to a hall with rooms off it but still not gendered.
It is a crime in Australia to molest people against their will so I guess we don't have to rely on separation to prevent that happening.
As for privacy, they all have doors. In some thrift shops they just have a curtain, sometimes barely wide enough. I once lost my balance putting on pants and fell through the curtain ....... Damn pants ....... Luckily nobody noticed.
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by 6ft3Aussie »

That's the sort of sensationalist BS I would expect from a tabloid such as the Daily Mail. That media production even has an Australian version, and puts out similar sensationalist BS.

Seriously, if a customer can't wait for a free cubicle to try on her clothes and then decides from her own free will to compromise her modesty in a public area, then she must live with the consequences of her decision. It's been said before, life is a series of choices.

I have not been in many stores which have a female or male segregated change room area, there's even been times when I have tried items and been accompanied by my wife.
If it's clearly signed male and female, then yes, but if not, show me the problem.
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by SkirtsDad »

Couldn't find a story so had to create one, it seems to me. It's really unclear what she's even complaining about. If the men had been 5'8" would she have been ok with that? Was she unhappy that a man wanted to wear the same top she had chosen? It's just a nonsensical article designed to stir people up IMHO.

When you break it down, she decided to strip off in a communal area... surely that shouldn't be allowed. Pity they didn't chuck her out!

From places I have been to that have that sort of arrangement (River Island comes to mind), the shared space allows people's partner, friend or relative to sit there whilst the person goes into the cubicle, tries on a garment, and comes out to show them without the need for them to parade round the rest of the shop. Looking at other shops, like H&M, then last time I went there, the changing rooms were ungendered. I am assuming by the fact that H&M was packed, that no-one cared. You have a door between you and the rest of the world.
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Uncle Al »

:hmmm: The Daily Mail (Wail).....this article/story sounds like
something found in the old "National Enquirer", the original
Fake News Outlet :lol:

IF IT IS TRUE, we're all adults here. What was it, that was 'seen'
at the shop, that hasn't been seen before :?: A Bra and Panties :?:
They cover more skin than a late model Bikini Swim suit :!:

For "some" people, 2 + 2 don't add up to 4.
As my younger son would say;
"That person is one sandwich shy of a full picnic"

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Sinned
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Re: Another Daily Mail rant

Post by Sinned »

Just to add further fuel to the fire: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tores.html.

My experience is of separate changing areas, sometimes on different floors. In a communal area it wouldn't bother me if a woman came into the area but if a woman was already in there ( and in some state of undress ) then I would probably enquire if she was ok with me coming in. Pure politeness and consideration on my part.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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