FT article

[pelmut]

For me, I resent labels. I don’t mind gender non-conforming to some extent - it’s a plain statement of fact. However… at the same token I wish it weren’t so and it could just be “my style” without any gender/sex overtones. We don’t live in that world, however, and I’m not sure we will ever be there.

The labels and the divisions that give rise to them are not ones which we ourselves have generated, they have been imposed upon us by others.  If someone is going to define a label, that's fine -- but if they are then going to tell me that in their view I fit that label and therefore must do this or not do that, I should have the right to tell them where they can stuff their labels.

[Coder]

For me, I resent labels. I don’t mind gender non-conforming to some extent - it’s a plain statement of fact.

We are, by definition, gender-conforming in a very limited sense that we are challenging one specific taboo.

Well, yes - that is I want my current non-conformance to be accepted as typical of males… and it is a taboo… but I also have to be honest about what people around me will think.

[rode_kater]

The way I see labels is that everybody these days seems to wants one (a group name associated with how the perceive themselves)

Welcome to the age of Identity Politics. Where it's not enough to say what you do "I like guys" or "I vote Republican/Democrat". Instead you are considered to be in some category, as if it is part of your identity: You are gay, you are Republican/Democrat. The idea that you could possibly switch is consider impossible by some.

Contrast: "I like women's clothing" to "I am a crossdresser". Or even "I am a skirt-wearer".

It's completely stupid of course. Every person is unique and does and likes all sorts of things, but not all (or even many) of those things are part of their identity. I'm not really clear what "identity" is supposed to be anyway.

♫ I am what I am, I am my own special creation ♫

Identity politics isn't actually new. It just used to be based on things like religion, or working class/elite, etc. I think that modern media together with two-party systems exacerbate the problem.

(Note, as soon as you try you point out that people are not just one thing, they claim you believe in intersectionality and are woke. At that point you best walk away.)

[crfriend]

It's completely stupid of course. Every person is unique and does and likes all sorts of things, but not all (or even many) of those things are part of their identity. I'm not really clear what "identity" is supposed to be anyway.

♫ I am what I am, I am my own special creation ♫

I am a demographic of one, and veer from "normal" in almost every conceivable way. Interestingly, though, stripped of clothing I look rather unremarkable and pretty much like any other exemplar of the male of the species.

Or, as Popeye The Sailor Man said, "I yam what I yam!"

Identity politics isn't actually new. It just used to be based on things like religion, or working class/elite, etc. I think that modern media together with two-party systems exacerbate the problem.

It's not new at all, and it's also a great way to keep the rabble at each other's throats.

[rivegauche]

I am another label rebel. But people love their labels so I invented my own. I like wearing clothes society likes only women to wear. Sometimes I dress as a woman and go out in public presenting as a woman. It is never a problem. I am treated with respect and affection at all times. At no stage do I identify as a woman even when I am acting as one. This is the word. I am ACTING. People are aware of trans women but not other men dressed as women, or even of men in dresses and skirts who are not presenting as women (which is me some of the time). I am not including drag performers in this - when did you ever see a woman dressed like this. On the other hand you could say the same about Grayson Perry, but he does it for the same reason as me - for FUN. After years of wondering why I do this it comes down to this - for fun. I get endorphins just from putting on dresses and skirts and all that goes with them. I envy women only their wardrobes and their support networks, and it seems you can get admitted to the support if you embrace their wardrobes, so win win. I am cherry picking womanhood when retaining the undoubted advantages of male privilege. If you think of someone who likes to visit France - dresses like the French, talks like the French, moves like the French and so on, but at no stage do you want to live there permanently or become a French citizen. So my label is 'gender tourist'. Society does not have a box for this. That is society's problem, not mine.

[Sinned]

Now I don't understand you saying that, when dressed fully as a woman, you act as a woman but don't identify as one. But "identify" is defined as "associate someone or something closely with; regard as having strong links with". So someone you haven't met before, and seeing you dressed as a woman, won't know that you are "acting" and will identify you as a woman - as they will associate you with the group "woman" and assume you have links with that group by dressing and acting [0] as one. So the assumption is probably not what you intend but a reasonable one nevertheless. If I were to meet you for the first time when you were in that mode it's the impression I would get.

Sorry, but if someone, ".... dresses like the French, talks like the French, moves like the French and so on...." then, on meeting them for the first time, I would assume they were French as they would be displaying all the characteristics of a French person. That is they are identifying as a French person and I would have no reason to think otherwise until they lapsed into the English language ( or whatever their nationality was ).

[0] Acting as in taking on the mannerisms of not acting as in the sense of acting on a stage. A subtle difference perhaps.

[mishawakaskirt]

For me, I resent labels. I don’t mind gender non-conforming to some extent - it’s a plain statement of fact. However… at the same token I wish it weren’t so and it could just be “my style” without any gender/sex overtones. We don’t live in that world, however, and I’m not sure we will ever be there.

The labels and the divisions that give rise to them are not ones which we ourselves have generated, they have been imposed upon us by others.  If someone is going to define a label, that's fine -- but if they are then going to tell me that in their view I fit that label and therefore must do this or not do that, I should have the right to tell them where they can stuff their labels.

CODER And PELMUT, well said.

[Faldaguy]

by rivegauche » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:46 pm

I am another label rebel. But people love their labels so I invented my own. ....

I am cherry picking womanhood when retaining the undoubted advantages of male privilege. So my label is 'gender tourist'. Society does not have a box for this. That is society's problem, not mine.

Thank you Rivergauche, and others in this thread for the smiles we rebels can enjoy in our label rebellions. But, I suspect you may have a philosophical debate on the horizon from Stu...others, on "the undoubted advantages of male privilege --- should be fun!

[rivegauche]

If you are acting, you are acting. No sane actor going on stage as Napoleon actually believes he IS Napoleon. People meeting me when I am fully dressed as a woman are usually people (women) that know me and know I am male. I have a women friend I go out with and I drop the act when we are alone together in the car. I don't see any difference between the principle of acting on the stage and in a shop/street except one tends to have a paying audience who know the whole thing is acted - but for the actors it is the same principle and many amateurs go on stage just for the fun of it, as I get fun out of acting the art when I go out dressed up. Very occasionally I meet someone new who does not realise I am male and when I tell them they are amazed - and so am I that I have been that convincing. Once a guy joined our group and I was introduced to him as Susan and he showed no sign of realising I was male but as it was just a conversation in a bar involving lots of people, no harm done and no one did or said anything embarrassing. I am heterosexual and would get out of there fast if any guy came on to me - it has never happened and I suspect it never will. No one gets hurt, no harm done, I have fun - where is the problem? In fact when I go out dressed as a woman more than 95% of the people I interact with are women. I go to boutiques, restaurants, concerts and fashion events and almost everyone is female - you sometimes get male bar staff or till operators in supermarkets but in general the fashion and service sectors are staffed by women.

When I am dressed as a woman, women sometimes talk about stuff they never usually discuss in front of men. These are women who know I am male. When I asked about this I was told that I was being treated as an honorary woman. I will happily join in talk about tights but talk about the menopause or cellulite is not remotely interesting to me, I'm afraid and occasionally I wonder if it is more a question of inflicting this on me than including me - just to make it all too clear to me that there is more to this woman stuff than a nice outfit and good make-up.

[denimini]

I just ask for a person's name, so I know how to address them.
We are all unique individuals, a mixture of genetics, environment and experience and should be respected as such.

I don't need to know someone's sex as I am not a doctor referring someone to a Pap-smear or a prostate check.
I don't need to know someone's sexuality unless I am a contender for an intimate relationship.
Gender is just one element of a person's portrayal; most people choose conventional models but some don't. Intelligence, interests, humour, kindness, respect and sincerity are just some of the other possible attributes.

Be yourself and foster mutual respect with others.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Once a guy joined our group and I was introduced to him as Susan and he showed no sign of realizing I was male but as it was just a conversation in a bar involving lots of people, no harm done and no one did or said anything embarrassing. I am heterosexual and would get out of there fast if any guy came on to me - it has never happened and I suspect it never will.

Pish tosh, give yourself more credit. If you ever did get hit here's a potential escape, "I'm really flattered that you find me that attractive, but honestly -- and please don't take this personally -- categorically, you're not my type ... The subject category is that you're male." If the guy is dumb enough to persist, thinking he's "man enough to turn you," the appropriate follow-on is, "Look, just as I know good and darn well I'm not Pussy Galore; I'm damn sure you're not James Bond!"

women discuss things with me they never usually discuss with men ... inflicting on me ...

Give your friends more credit than to think they're that devious. I expect it's just they're that comfortable with you. Which is a good thing.

[Sinned]

I give up. If, dressed as a woman, your mannerisms are such that it becomes difficult to tell that you are a man then you become a woman without having the change in genitals. You may be deluding yourself in thinking that you are "acting" but in reality you are fooling others to think that you are a woman. To paraphrase your own analogy, if someone ".... dresses like a woman, talks like a woman, moves like a woman and so on...." then, on meeting them for the first time, I would assume they were a woman.

[rivegauche]

I give up. If, dressed as a woman, your mannerisms are such that it becomes difficult to tell that you are a man then you become a woman without having the change in genitals. You may be deluding yourself in thinking that you are "acting" but in reality you are fooling others to think that you are a woman. To paraphrase your own analogy, if someone ".... dresses like a woman, talks like a woman, moves like a woman and so on...." then, on meeting them for the first time, I would assume they were a woman.

I get a bit fed up of people making assumptions on my behalf. I tell people stuff and they say no - on the basis of what you have told me you are entirely wrong about yourself Your are delusional. You don't know me. I do. A handful of people have indeed assumed I was a woman. I like to put this down to the quality of my acting but perhaps this would be delusional - in reality they probably are not paying a great deal of attention to my gender because they don't care what gender I am. It really doesn't matter. I like being male but it occasionally fun to be this gender tourist - doing this 2-3 times a year is hardly identifying as a woman.

As to the remarks about my friends. These particular people probably are not devious but I absolutely do have lovely devious friends. The interplay is part of the fun of being with them. In Scotland we do this to each other as a sign of affection. No one is ever harmed by this interplay, and when you lose an encounter, you admire the skill of the person who has prevailed. It s not a requirement of friendship but it is a nice bonus.

[pelmut]

A handful of people have indeed assumed I was a woman. I like to put this down to the quality of my acting ...

The real test is whether you are happy with them assuming you are a woman; not just because you feel you have fooled them, but because you feel more comfortable in yourself when they do it.  Only you know what you are feeling, nobody else can tell you.

If, deep inside, you feel upset because they have misgendered you, they have misgendered you.

[rivegauche]

A handful of people have indeed assumed I was a woman. I like to put this down to the quality of my acting ...

The real test is whether you are happy with them assuming you are a woman; not just because you feel you have fooled them, but because you feel more comfortable in yourself when they do it.  Only you know what you are feeling, nobody else can tell you.

If, deep inside, you feel upset because they have misgendered you, they have misgendered you.

Almost everyone I interact with knows I am male. Even so, some of them use 'she' when referring to me. I find it amusing. It does not upset me and I feel that if I go around acting like a woman I can hardly complain if people refer to me as one. I do not regard it as any sort of test. The only thing that bothers me is people who do not know me contradicting what I say about why I do what I do. There is a whole range of people on this site from those who wear skirts with hairy legs to those who are simply wearing the clothes that they feel express their true gender. No everyone is in a box on this spectrum, and when I try to define my own box, I get told I am not allowed in my own box! Or my definition doesn't actually mean what I say it means! I fit in my box - not in anyone else's version of my box, and I have difficulty seeing why anyone else has difficulty with this.