Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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mishawakaskirt
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Stu wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:16 am This made me angry!

Think about it. Boys, the gender that is falling behind, should do this for girls, the gender that is actually ahead in education? Also, girls have a genuine choice 365 days a year while a taboo says boys can't enjoy wearing them because ... reasons... except, apparently, for one day a year when they can do so, but then only to show solidarity with the privileged gender that can wear them.
I know this stuff is getting old with the schools and skirts. And the bent that If a boy wants to wear a skirt, it's in solidarity, or he wants or has to be a girl etc.

I wear skirts because . Because I want to. They are comfy able. Not for solidarity, not for gender identity,

These schools need a education.

It's Simple really.

Girl + trousers = girl in trousers
Girl + skirt = girl in skirt
Boy + trousers = boy in trousers
Boy + skirt = boy in skirt

Is it really more complicated than that????
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by moonshadow »

Kirbstone wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:06 pm As I understand the word Indoctrination' , it's teaching people to accept a set of rules uncritically. Open to all sorts of interpretations, no doubt, but all of us are indoctrinated from birth, first by our parents, then by teachers, then by peer groups. By peer groups I mean people engaging in group or team activities, be it sport or music or drama or games or whatever. We are constantly learning new rules.

Identity/nationality/religion. All subjects for indoctrination.

Also language. As a baby one needs to be 'indoctrinated' in one's mother tongue. Other means of communication come later, of course.

As a child, garments to wear are given/presented by parents or guardians and again, class or peer group example is a major factor in securing acceptance of e.g. skirts

Tom
Leave it to Tom to pepper in some common sense in a thread...

Incase you missed the post folks, I have quoted it above.

Perhaps this [issue] isn't worth getting our unmentionables in a twist over.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by Stu »

rode_kater wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:12 pm If you want to bring up a generation of uncritical, uninformed children who are afraid to ask questions, that sounds to me exactly the way to achieve it.
It's not about indoctrination, it's about letting the kids ask questions, asking why they say things and to hear other points of view.

Also, if teaching children to sing the national anthem isn't indoctrination, what is?
No. The example you have given relates to children asking questions themselves. That is not the same as introducing them at a tender age to adult topics, and it is vastly different to encouraging them to participate in a form of activist or protest which is what was happening in this school.

I do not encourage the singing of the national anthem in schools either.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by Stu »

Kirbstone wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:06 pm As I understand the word Indoctrination' , it's teaching people to accept a set of rules uncritically. Open to all sorts of interpretations, no doubt, but all of us are indoctrinated from birth, first by our parents, then by teachers, then by peer groups. By peer groups I mean people engaging in group or team activities, be it sport or music or drama or games or whatever. We are constantly learning new rules.

Identity/nationality/religion. All subjects for indoctrination.

Also language. As a baby one needs to be 'indoctrinated' in one's mother tongue. Other means of communication come later, of course.

As a child, garments to wear are given/presented by parents or guardians and again, class or peer group example is a major factor in securing acceptance of e.g. skirts
Parents will always indoctrinate their own children at least with their own values, and often with their religion. That is unavoidable and it is also arguably their right as parents. I do not, however, believe the school has the right to do that with any topic where there is a strong possibility that parents may object - and especially where we are talking about primary school children. They should not be teaching primary kids about BLM, Antifa, critical race theory, white privilege, toxic masculinity, critical race theory, LGBT issues, gender pronouns, hetero-normativity or anything like that at primary level beyond simply (a) teaching them to be kind, fair and tolerant to each other and (b) answering direct questions. At secondary level, then such topics might be appropriately introduced - so long as they are done so with a critical element. In other words, they are not presented hegemonically, but rather that these olde students are encouraged to debate all aspects and make up their own minds.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by Jim »

rode_kater wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:12 pm Also, if teaching children to sing the national anthem isn't indoctrination, what is?
If singing the national anthem isn't indoctrination, reciting a pledge of allegiance to a flag and republic certainly is!
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

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Jim wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:26 amIf singing the national anthem isn't indoctrination, reciting a pledge of allegiance to a flag and republic certainly is!
Especially one to a country that effectively does not exist any longer!
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by moonshadow »

Like Tom points out, there is always going to be some level of "indoctrination" of young minds. The issue and subject of debate is and always has been what shall that indoctrination be?

I've often found it ironic that the same people that may rail against "indoctrination" of gender freedom gladly accept and even push for the "indoctrination" of religious instruction in public schools.

Perhaps it is time for the Supreme Court to weigh in on certain social issues (LGB, transgender subjects, CRT, etc) regarding this indoctrination.

One point that I occasionally bring up in LGBT circles, and one they particuarlly disapprove of (but remains a fact nevertheless) is that it's really not necessary to have teach these controversial subjects in the lower school grades.

We had an interesting dinner table discussion last night where I had mentioned what I had been exposed to as a young child growing up prior to the internet. Back in those days, as I'm sure we all can recall from our own childhoods, we were mostly exposed to what was actually taught to us from adults, those in authority, schools, etc. These days every kid is practically born connected to the internet. And while I realize there may be parental controls on these devises, they are as easy to break into as your parents liquor cabinet when you had friends over... there's always going to be that one hacker kid, or that one kid who has the unlocked phone at the sleepover.

I got some bad news for these angry parents rioting at school board meetings and getting all up in arms about what their children are being exposed to...

You're not going to stop this, unless you know of a way to uninvent the internet. You can flat out ban EVERY social subject from schools, but those ideas are always going to find a way. You can't chain an idea, they filter through walls, blackouts, shouting and screaming. Take North Korea for example, the most authoritarian country in the world, even many of its citizens still have access to the rest of the world's ideas through the use of portable thumb drives and other media that gets smuggled in.

I was never taught college level CRT in primary school (and I doubt they are teaching it now... good luck trying to get complex racial theory to stick in pupils still trying to figure out the difference between a circle and a square). I was never "indoctrinated" in the ways of gender theory. The idea that I might be a girl was completely foreign. There were no trans kids at all that I'm aware (at least not out in the open). Nobody came out as gay or lesbian, we didn't even know what it meant. And... up until the second grade, despite it being illegal, we were still being forced to recite prayer before lunch.

Yet despite all of that I myself grew up to be a feminine, gender nonconformist, libertarian, agnostic guy. And I'm not the only one. Everybody is going to grow into the people they are going to be, the "indoctrination" of the school has very little to do with it. Our spirits, hearts, and minds are a tapestry of our life experiences. School is a part of that, but only a small part. Ideally, we never stop learning, even long after graduation.

Sorry angry parents... but brains are going to think (hopefully).
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by moonshadow »

Consider the advertising that young minds are exposed to CONSTANTLY outside of school. Consider the words they hear day after day after day. The politics, the signs, the slogans. All these kids have to do is get on their parents computer, or pull that phone out of their pocket and type anything they hear into Google.

Even such a simple word as "sex". It may be mentioned in the context of "male" or "female" (not the action)... yet still, just type "sex" into Google and see what you get.

Pretty much all of us on this web forum didn't have such access to information when we were growing up. When I was ten years old, if I had a question about "sex" (either definition) I had to ask my parents, or maybe if I were able, I might find a book in the library about it. There was no getting on a computer and punching it in a search engine. Smart phones and search engines (as they are today) didn't exist yet, and what few computer networks did exist during my childhood were out of reach to many households.

It's a different world now guys.

You can either adapt, or die pissed and bitter.

Sorry... *shrugs* but that's just the way it is. Or you can try and join the Amish... that might buy you a decade or two, maybe.
Last edited by moonshadow on Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

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For my two pence worth, I think that the scchools should concentrate on the mechanics of thinking and in giving the kids the basic tools they're going to need once their brains really fire up. I'm specifically thinking of the sorts of skills that lead up to the ability to think critically and to form their own opinions on matters. Schools should concentrate on basic ethics and ethical behaviour instead of pushing political agendas. In short, "Do unto others..." -- which if the kids are paying attention they will quickly realise that's not the way it actually works in the Real World, but should be.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:06 pm For my two pence worth, I think that the scchools should concentrate on the mechanics of thinking and in giving the kids the basic tools they're going to need once their brains really fire up. I'm specifically thinking of the sorts of skills that lead up to the ability to think critically and to form their own opinions on matters. Schools should concentrate on basic ethics and ethical behaviour instead of pushing political agendas. In short, "Do unto others..." -- which if the kids are paying attention they will quickly realise that's not the way it actually works in the Real World, but should be.
I agree, teach kids how to think.

Society will always try to teach kids what to think.

But with any amount of luck, they will grow into adults that will think for themselves.

Lesson 1:

Turn off the TV.

About the time they start to learn more complex social issues, such as racism, gender theory, religion, etc, I might suggest a quick course in how to spot corporate manipulation. Learn virtually everything you see broadcasted has an agenda, and everyone does sometimes lie for their own benefit. Learn how and why we have advertising, learn to spot the hidden, eccentric symbolism behind that advertising.

Everybody had at least a little bias, learn to spot it.

Above all

QUESTION EVERYTHING and TRUST NOBODY.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:58 pm One point that I occasionally bring up in LGBT circles, and one they particuarlly disapprove of (but remains a fact nevertheless) is that it's really not necessary to have teach these controversial subjects in the lower school grades.
When the children have already been taught in their own homes to despise 'poofters', ridicule 'freaks' in frocks and believe that 'n*****s' should be enslaved because they are genetically inferior, it isn't such a bad idea to teach them otherwise as early as possible.  I really wish you were right and it wasn't necessary, but there are times when it is.

The controversy, such as it is, is an artificial one drummed up by the haters, phobics and racists who constantly feed lies to the media, I see nothing wrong with telling children the truth.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:12 pmEverybody had at least a little bias, learn to spot it.
This includes ourselves, and that needs to be factored into any thought processes that may generate opinions. Very few folks do that.

Teaching children to think is laudable, but difficult now at least in the modern USA where it's important to those in power that "hard questions" don't get asked lest the proletariat become restless.

It's also important to teach children how to observe critically -- to pay attention to minutiae, how to spot the sleight-of-hand, With those lessons in place, it becomes possible for the intelligent and inquisitive child to infer what "the man behind the curtain" is doing.
QUESTION EVERYTHING and TRUST NOBODY.
Question, always, but also have an "inner circle" of close friends who "have your back" if the gauntlet gets thrown. Trust their input, because sometimes you're too stressed to see the forest for the trees. BTDT. (Viz the "debacle of 2015".) Friends are important for "no man is an island".
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:41 pm When the children have already been taught in their own homes to despise 'poofters', ridicule 'freaks' in frocks and believe that 'n*****s' should be enslaved because they are genetically inferior, it isn't such a bad idea to teach them otherwise as early as possible. 
I really don't think many children are raised to think like that in their own homes. For those who are, they will always believe their own parents and siblings over teachers.

The best way to deal with this is to teach critical thinking skills when they are older, so they can work it out for themselves and reject irrational hatred. While at primary school, then it's not their cultural ethos that can be challenged - but their behaviour. They can and should be taught to treat others with respect, including members of groups as you describe, because those are the rules of the school and they are to protect everyone.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by rode_kater »

Stu wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:08 am
No. The example you have given relates to children asking questions themselves. That is not the same as introducing them at a tender age to adult topics, and it is vastly different to encouraging them to participate in a form of activist or protest which is what was happening in this school.
In the context of this thread, the original article said the students came up with the idea themselves. So I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted schools to push anything particular.

As others point out, schools don't need to do anything, the rest of the world will introduce them to adult topics the moment they turn on the TV, look at the internet, etc.
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Re: Edinburgh school asks boys to wear skirts on 4 November

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:53 pm
pelmut wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:41 pm When the children have already been taught in their own homes to despise 'poofters', ridicule 'freaks' in frocks and believe that 'n*****s' should be enslaved because they are genetically inferior, it isn't such a bad idea to teach them otherwise as early as possible. 
I really don't think many children are raised to think like that in their own homes.
If they don't get it from home, where do they get it from?  It is already prevalent by the time they are old enough to go out on their own and form a gang.
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