Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
rivegauche
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by rivegauche »

Interesting points there about hydrogen. I had naively thought it just produced water at the point of use. Wind turbines and batteries use rare earths that involve extreme pollution in the countries where they are mined. As for global net zero, even if it can achieved - and I doubt that there are enough of the carbon-emitting nations on board for this - climate change will continue - see the IPCC reports. Global net zero is not the end, it is just the beginning of the end.
Faldaguy
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Faldaguy »

Well, convert a few of the crypto mining operations to EV chargers --winners all around. The hue and cry over load on the electric grid seems to based on the expectation that the oil extraction industry is still in full command, meanwhile alternatives are proving themselves viable technologically but nobody is willing to take on this cash cow in favor of actually surviving another half century. Maybe we should just ban ICE and see what happens?
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Uncle Al
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Uncle Al »

One of the major problems we have in the U. S. is the electric grid can't handle
major/high demand during bad weather. How can it support all the EV's when it can't
support the country :?: The "grid" needs a major overhaul to strengthen the needed
demand for ANY situation :!: The electric power distribution companies don't want to
spend the money required to update/upgrade "The Grid" to meet the higher demand.

To me, it all comes down to GREED and CEO's, CFO's want to keep the shareholders
happy, making a profit or R.O.I.(Return On Investment).

Money - Money - Money. That's all it takes, or matters :!:

Just my $.02 worth........
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trainspotter48
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by trainspotter48 »

On the subject of hydrogen, I have worked at a site where hydrogen was in use, and it's not the sort of thing to let the general public near. It's VERY interested in burning/exploding at virtually any concentration!! The bottom line is that a leak will almost certainly result in a fire.

(Despite all the precautions, we experienced a hydrogen fire, and it wasn't easy to put out)
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crfriend
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by crfriend »

trainspotter48 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:29 am
(Despite all the precautions, we experienced a hydrogen fire, and it wasn't easy to put out)
Isn't the first step in fighting that sort of thing to turn the source off? That's the first step in fighting an electrical fire -- turn the power off (then you have a conventional fire which is easier to deal with).

Note that I'm not making light of the matter -- no matter how you cut it, if hydrogen isn't safely and carefully handled it can be bad stuff indeed, and we're part of a population that's becoming more and more careless by the minute. Don't believe me? Spend five minutes driving somewhere and note how many stupid things you see and how many drivers are using their "devices" instead of driving. Do you want one of those with a pressure-tank full of hydrogen next to you?
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6ft3Aussie
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by 6ft3Aussie »

On the topic of hydrogen, while it it probably the cleanest of fuels, and aside from the fact that is is probable one of the least stable. It absolutely loves to react violently with oxygen and release a lot energy in the process.
I recall chemistry experiments at school where we blew things up, including once an overturned rubbish bin with a spectacular bang.

The other issue with hydrogen as a fuel is that it requires a lot of energy to produce, especially by electrolysis, almost equal to or equal to the amount of energy released by explosively returning it to it's most stable form, water, so from that perspective it is not a particularly efficient fuel.
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Jim
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Jim »

6ft3Aussie wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am

The other issue with hydrogen as a fuel is that it requires a lot of energy to produce, especially by electrolysis, almost equal to or equal to the amount of energy released by explosively returning it to it's most stable form, water, so from that perspective it is not a particularly efficient fuel.
The laws of thermodynamics, including the conservation of energy, require that it takes more energy to produce by electrolysis than can be used by returning the hydrogen to water. It's an energy storage method, just like a battery. But you can't power a car with solar cells on the car or a wind turbine on the car but if you use those to create hydrogen gas, you can carry the hydrogen. If you are using coal to produce the hydrogen, there is no carbon balance advantage.
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Bodycon
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Bodycon »

Hydrogen by electrolysis is very inefficient, however if you have turbines turning away all night producing electricity it makes sense to use that electricity to produce hydrogen as it is pretty cheap, when demand is low.

The problems will arise, when all the cheap electricity is being used to power overnight chargers for EV's and large scale battery storage units, which is what will happen if we continue on the EV path. At this point Hydrogen becomes extremely expensive.

So is it worth the bother?
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crfriend
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by crfriend »

At present, I'm not really sure it's worth the bother.

First off, we're going to have to produce the stuff at an industrial scale rivalling that of oil refining, then add to that the fact that we're going to have to create the technologies pretty much from scratch to move the stuff around -- safely -- in those sorts of volumes.

Quite probably the only option within current technological reach is more electrification and more nuclear generation -- and that's not going to fly in the United States for sociological and political reasons.
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by pelmut »

6ft3Aussie wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am
The other issue with hydrogen as a fuel is that it requires a lot of energy to produce,
Hydrogen is not a fuel and does not occur naturally (at least, on Earth), it is merely a carrier of energy from the real fuel to the point of use.  Current hydrogen technology is very inefficient and wastes a lot of energy.
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Big and Bashful
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Big and Bashful »

I would love a fuel cell car, as long as there was an infrastructure for pouring the gas in to fill up! It does have problems with storage, I read some research on the hazards; whereas most gases will be cooled by expansion if there is a leak, hydrogen does the opposite and can self ignite. not good! However, it can be stored in solid form on a palladium bed, I think heat releases it on demand but don't know all the facts.
Lets face it, if you want to stop car fires;
Remove the electrics, shorts start fires, so do overloaded circuits.
Remove the petrol, when petrol hits a hot surface it boils to vapour, not as bad as people think, but that vapour is very flammable and a spark or a flame will set it off.
Remove the brake and clutch fluid, if there is a fire in an RTA it is usually brake or clutch (hydraulic) fluid that starts it, unlike petrol it will ignite when it lands on something hot. Where are master cylinders etc? normally under the bonnet and near or over the exhaust manifold. D'OH!
I wouldn't worry much about diesel, it doesn't burn unless you atomise it first, paraffin is similar and when I was an apprentice we would stub cigarettes out in it and we used it as coolant when machining metal.
For eclectic cars, where do we put the electrickery? oh yes, lithium batteries, over charge them, explosion plus fire that is very difficult to extinguish, too much discharge like a short circuit, again, boom bang-a-bang and a nasty fire.
I would happily take my chances with good double walled or triple walled hydrogen storage, with decent shut-off valves to cut off the gas in an impact or fire.
Remember, never be caught in an explosion or try to put out a fire when wearing a skirt! you could get singed (that looks wrong?) knees!
I see Lewis H has left the kilt behind this weekend and resorted to a peculiar hairstyle, well why not?
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Dust
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by Dust »

Bodycon wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:06 pm
Hydrogen by electrolysis is very inefficient...
But there are other ways to produce it. Doing so on a large scale is a big capital investment, but it could potentially be done.

Such a production facility was drawn up on paper at one point, that would use a chemical process with heat input from a nuclear reactor directly. The other chemicals were reused, acting essentially as catalysts or brought back to their original state and used again in the process. It was supposed to be way more efficient than electrolysis, and really only take in water and the heat generated by nuclear. This was back when hydrogen cars were thought to be the next big thing, some 15+ years ago. That didn't happen, and the project went nowhere...
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Re: Skirts on the F1 Grid?

Post by rode_kater »

Bodycon wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:06 pm
Hydrogen by electrolysis is very inefficient,
Apparently you can get 80% and they are aiming at 85%, which is actually pretty good. Higher than I was expecting.

Of course, the bad part if that burning hydrogen in an ICE is only 30% efficient and there's no hope of fixing that. Hydrogen ICE cars are in my opinion dead in the water. Unless you're working somewhere without an electricity supply. Hydrogen fuel cells get 60% efficiency, which is better but still worse than just batteries.

Apparently jet engines can get 55% efficiency in combustion, but batteries are heavy so I think that's the killer application.
Bodycon wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:06 pm
So is it worth the bother?
For cars, no. For planes, yes. For other applications YMMV.

Edit: there's a project here to synthesise jet fuel directly from electricity and CO2 from the air. If it scales that might also beat out hydrogen for planes.
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