Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

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pelmut
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:44 am
In light of the evidence we do have, even if it may be less than 100% watertight proof, then the onus of disproof that this is a factor would now rest with those who discount the innateness element and to show nurture is the sole operator.
I've certainly not tried to claim that nurture is the sole operator, there could be many factors, some of which haven't even been thought of yet.  To attribute the differences to genetic factors, I would have expected some evidence of genetic transmission i.e. which genes were involved.  Without that, the assertion that it is 'genetic' is pure speculation with no evidence to back it
I don't believe any evidence in that direction.
Do you mean you don't believe there is any evidence in that direction or do you mean there is some evidence but you don't believe it?
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

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pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:30 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:44 am
In light of the evidence we do have, even if it may be less than 100% watertight proof, then the onus of disproof that this is a factor would now rest with those who discount the innateness element and to show nurture is the sole operator.
I've certainly not tried to claim that nurture is the sole operator, there could be many factors, some of which haven't even been thought of yet.  To attribute the differences to genetic factors, I would have expected some evidence of genetic transmission i.e. which genes were involved.  Without that, the assertion that it is 'genetic' is pure speculation with no evidence to back it
Is "genetic" the right word? When I think of genetics, I think of specific traits that help classify people in small/tiny categories (hair color, eye color, disease susceptibility). But when it comes to hormones, while there may be some fluctuations in the amounts, there's basically an understanding that amab generate testosterone, afab generate estrogen. Both of those hormones cause a body to develop certain physical characteristics, why can't they also be responsible for mental/societal aspects of an individual?
pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:30 pm
I don't believe any evidence in that direction.
Do you mean you don't believe there is any evidence in that direction or do you mean there is some evidence but you don't believe it?
I am curious to know as well.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:30 pm
i.e. which genes were involved.  Without that, the assertion that it is 'genetic' is pure speculation with no evidence to back it
Wow! That's asking a lot! They are still working on the link between FOXP2 and speech - and you want genes which show gender differences! You'll have a loooong wait for that. My colleague Wofgang Enard in Munich has been working in that area: https://www.lsm.bio.lmu.de/faculty/curr ... index.html
Do you mean you don't believe there is any evidence in that direction or do you mean there is some evidence but you don't believe it?
I don't care one way or the other and I am happy to go with the evidence. The evidence we have so far (and I work in this field) appears to show many speech characteristics are innate rather than learned.

Of course, speech habits are learned, but have you never noticed how quickly a child picks up language merely by exposure to that language and without having to be taught it? I can't do that and you can't do that. This is what Noam Chomski has built his linguistics career on in which he advocates that human speech, even down to the fundamental building blocks of grammar, are innate rather than learned during the "Critical Period". What we learn in language is the vocabulary and finer grammatical rules - but the "hard-wiring" is present before birth. If we are pre-programmed to absorb and reproduce language, then it's a fair assumption that at least some other communication-related behaviour is also transferred biologically.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

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Stu wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:26 pm
pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:30 pm
i.e. which genes were involved.  Without that, the assertion that it is 'genetic' is pure speculation with no evidence to back it
Wow! That's asking a lot! They are still working on the link between FOXP2 and speech - and you want genes which show gender differences!
I don't want them, but anyone who asserts that speech patterns are genetic needs to present some evidence about the genes involved.  If there isn't any, as you imply, the assertions are unsupported and statements such as " male and female speech behaviours differ; these behaviours are evolutionary in origin" do not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Stu wrote:I don't believe any evidence in that direction.
pelmut wrote: Do you mean you don't believe there is any evidence in that direction or do you mean there is some evidence but you don't believe it?
Stu wrote:I don't care one way or the other and I am happy to go with the evidence.
If you don't believe there is any evidence, what is the evidence you are happy to go with?  ...and if there is evidence that you don't believe in, why are you happy to go with it?
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Bodycon »

Coder wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:59 pm
Bodycon wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:54 pm
I wonder how this question would be answered in those societies in the world where clothing isn't seen as (or as so) gender specific?
Are there any, though? I'm genuinely interested.
I'm no expert, but Google says Myanmar has the unisex longyi for example, and similar in China.

I wonder what the answers would be if you asked them to choose?
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Sinned »

Stu, I would posit that men don't carry handbags is due to them having pockets, not only in trousers but also jackets. Conversely women only have shallow, nominal pockets because they have handbags and purses. I know that wearing a skirt forces me to have some sort of a bag in which to carry keys, phone wallet. It would be interesting to note if a woman had trousers and a jacket with meaningful pockets would they still carry a bag? Maybe at first because they were used to carrying one. But would they eventually cease?

I think in some of the Polynesian Islands a long skirt is worn by both sexes.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Ralph »

Sinned wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:55 pm
Stu, I would posit that men don't carry handbags is due to them having pockets, not only in trousers but also jackets.
I started carrying a purse years ago when it became clear that I could not make room in my pockets for driving glasses, sunglasses, reading glasses, phone, pen, car keys, wallet, tissues for my allergy-plagued nose, allergy pills, throat lozenges, and so on and on and on.

I did take the coward's way out and use a plain black canvas "laptop bag" rather than anything with even the faintest whiff femininity, but my mates still derisively call it my purse or, if they're being charitable, my man-bag. But I couldn't help notice that a year or so after I had been using it, a few of them got a similar design and have been using it whenever I see them.
Sinned wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:55 pm
I know that wearing a skirt forces me to have some sort of a bag in which to carry keys, phone wallet.
I don't even buy skirts anymore that do not have pockets! But again, even roomy pockets are no match for my ever-increasing pile of things that I need to carry around with me most places.
Ralph!
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Sinned »

As a worker at a checkout I have noticed a few men starting to carry bags, and I can't really say that I've seen any other colour but black.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by crfriend »

Sinned wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:22 pm
As a worker at a checkout I have noticed a few men starting to carry bags, and I can't really say that I've seen any other colour but black.
This is sort of odd and conflicts with my memories of a managerial-level guy who visited the computing facility where I worked in Waltham, MA/USA from the one that we had in Milton Keynes in the UK -- and he carried a mid-sized grey clutch, and I was given to understand that the practise was common there at the time. It was a bit of a shock to the US types.

The shock wore off quickly, of course, as it was a minor one, but the initial perception stuck in my young mind.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by Faldaguy »

Ralph, I tried your tactic for a bit of only buying skirts with pockets; but it limited my choice of skirts too much -- both for pragmatic and dramatic aspects -- so back to buying skirts I like regardless of pocket considerations. As noted, even when pockets are present, they usually fall short of being adequate -- so the 'man-bag' or equivalent becomes essential. I've only recently adapted to carrying a purse -- and I call it a purse -- given support from this site; in the same way I tell folks who ask if what I'm wearing is some kind of 'kilt' -- I promptly tell them it is just a skirt, and I may add ''as is a kilt'. Shock!

As to the ladies giving up their accustomed purse for pockets -- I think not, as many if not most are more concerned about how the skirt drapes and falls and don't want the bulges associated with pockets stuffed with gum, keys, and whatnot.

Yes, let's hear more about those societies where skirts or other clothing is 'non-gendered'. Tonga offers a number of interesting twists on gender and dress. Fiji police (male and female) flaunt skirts but that does not seem to extend to other articles and settings. Myanmar does seem to have a fairly universal adaptation of the basic longyi but the men's tend to be dull and plain compared to the women's htamein vs the men's called a paso so the gender distinction still seems to be a factor.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by rivegauche »

In Scotland a kilt is worn with a sporran, but a sporran doesn't hold much. I have seen women without handbags but somehow it looks odd unless they are wearing trousers. Not bad odd, just unusual odd. I have heard complaints from women that a four-year old boy will have better pockets than any women's clothes but obviously he needs these for his wallet and car keys. I have seen men in Scotland carrying leather bags that are for all purposes handbags (as in shoulder bags) and no one turned a hair. If no one turns a hair when you wear a skirt they are not going to baulk at a handbag, especially if the bag has a neutral design and is the usual black/brown/navy/grey in colour. I sometimes use a handbag at home just to carry things like my phone and a pen from room to room. It has to co-ordinate with my skirt or dress and shoes even though no one else is seeing it.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by pelmut »

It is often possible to add pockets to a skirt.  A 'bag' pocket can be hung from the inside of the waistband of an elastic-waisted skirt; some skirts have conveniently placed side seams that can be unpicked to allow a pocket to be inserted.  If you don't mind the slightly informal appearance, a patch pocket of contrasting material can be sewn on the outside.

Placing internal pockets just below the hip doesn't create unwanted bulges at the front.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

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pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:59 pm
I don't want them, but anyone who asserts that speech patterns are genetic needs to present some evidence about the genes involved.  If there isn't any, as you imply, the assertions are unsupported and statements such as " male and female speech behaviours differ; these behaviours are evolutionary in origin" do not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
In matters like these, judgments are based on the balance of evidence and I have shown you the evidence we have - and there is more besides. I have stated studies into the behaviour of other primates and I have told you that cross cultural studies indicate these same differences are common throughout humanity (Locke; Enard; Chomsky) You have no counter-evidence whatsoever. Not one single solitary study or theorist. You are arguing against what is - so far - reasonably settled science with a practitioner in that field and who teaches this stuff. I would hate to be a surgeon about to perform an operation on you.
pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:59 pm
If you don't believe there is any evidence, what is the evidence you are happy to go with?  ...and if there is evidence that you don't believe in, why are you happy to go with it?
I don't understand your point. The conclusion that evolution has had an effect on human speech begins with an assumption based on the experience that evolution has a role in virtually every aspect of human existence - including behaviour. There are even studies now linking evolution with the male propensity to exhibit witticisms (and reasons behind it)! Add to that existing evidence about non-human primate calls, the development of infant language and cross-cultural studies, and we have something of a consensus among neuroscientists and linguists.

But I guess you know best.
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

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Sinned wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:55 pm
Stu, I would posit that men don't carry handbags is due to them having pockets, not only in trousers but also jackets.
I am sure that plays a major part - but I also suspect that a handbag is something of a signifier of femininity as well for women, which is why they like them so much, are willing to have a large collection of them, are willing to spend huge amounts of money on them - and that they have to coordinate with other aspects of their appearance like clothes and shoes. So utility isn't the only reason for women by a long way. Women's fondness for handbags inevitably makes them a female accoutrement and. as such, they become taboo for males. However, as you rightly point out, some men do appreciate their utility, but they can't just go and buy a handbag like a woman can. No - this has to be distinct from the feminine variety - plain in appearance, robust-looking, too - and never called a "handbag"!
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Re: Breaking the Gender Binary with Rob Smith | Rob Smith | TEDxCMU

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:37 pm
pelmut wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:59 pm
I ...anyone who asserts that speech patterns are genetic needs to present some evidence about the genes involved. ..
In matters like these, judgments are based on the balance of evidence and I have shown you the evidence we have...
None.  You even ridiculed my suggestion that there might be some.  
Stu wrote:You have no counter-evidence whatsoever.
The onus is not on me to provide counter-evidence to disprove an assertion which was not supported by any evidence in the first place.
 
 
Stu wrote:I don't believe any evidence in that direction.
pelmut wrote:Do you mean you don't believe there is any evidence in that direction or do you mean there is some evidence but you don't believe it?
Stu wrote:I don't care one way or the other and I am happy to go with the evidence.
pelmut wrote:If you don't believe there is any evidence, what is the evidence you are happy to go with?  ...and if there is evidence that you don't believe in, why are you happy to go with it?
Stu wrote:I don't understand your point.
I have re-inserted the missing dialogue to give you a better chance of understanding why I asked for clarification.
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