Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by rode_kater »

Stu wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:22 pm No, they are disorders as they are mostly undesired and they adversely affect the individual's ability to procreate.
Undesired by whom? (IMO anyway) We do not exist on earth solely to procreate. The word "disorder" is (IMO) overused, part of the trend of labelling everybody even slightly outside of the norm with a disorder. If we don't watch out we'll be labelled as having "Gender Presentation Disorder" which sounds rather undesirable.
Stu wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:22 pm Nobody would call Down Syndrome or Marfan's a "variant". Let's call things what they are.
Estimates put unclear genitalia at about the same prevalence as Down Syndrome. If there is the desire to use a word I'd stick to "syndrome" since that's at least value neutral.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:22 pm
"The variants are just variants. To call them disorders is to put a value judgement on them"
No, they are disorders as they are mostly undesired and they adversely affect the individual's ability to procreate.
Your reply confirmed what I originally said: you are putting a value judgement on them.  This is eugenics.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by pelmut »

crfriend wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:14 pm
Men don't wear skirts ... because we won't let them.
No, society expects, nay demands, that men who wear skirts identify as something that they are not -- which is precisely the same problem but going the other way. (And possibly similar numbers.) Whither equality?
It would hve been more accurate if I had said:
Men don't wear skirts ... because when they do we tell them they aren't men.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:16 amIt would hve been more accurate if I had said:
Men don't wear skirts ... because when they do we tell them they aren't men.
That works, too, but is rather wordy. The former is also very true for guys who have highly resistant partners.

Unfortunately, until those pressures relent we're stuck with the current situation.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by Stu »

rivegauche wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:33 pm It is a bit mean to define these people on the basis of their inability to reproduce. That is true of lots of people for all sorts of reasons - are they all suffering from a disorder? Does the fact that I have no children (as far as I know I am XY) invalidate my existence? Disorder is a very strong and condemnatory expression. I refuse to use it. I maintain the view that sex is not binary. People should be valued for who they are - not just for those they beget. Atheism is no more defensible than theism - you cannot prove God does not exist. I am a non-believer.
I am not defining people on the basis of their inability to reproduce - I am saying their biological sex is to a large extent determined by their physiological reproductive potential. Is intersex a disorder? Well, it's certainly a "syndrome" and the variations are referred to as syndromes (Kleinfelter's Syndrome, De La Chappelle Syndrome etc). Look up the word "syndrome" in any medical dictionary and you will see it is defined as a set of "symptoms". Intersex conditions are syndromes and they are regarded by geneticists as abnormalities. I in no way "condemn" anyone for having a disorder. I have several disorders myself including an inherited one that affects my vision.

Sex is binary as the biological function of sexual dimorphism is the continuance of our species, and intersex people either cannot reproduce at all or experience problems (symptoms) when they do. That is the reality and claiming otherwise is simply twisting scientific reality to fit an ideological point of view or to spare people's feelings.
rivegauche wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:33 pmAtheism is no more defensible than theism - you cannot prove God does not exist.
I have not advocated for atheism, nor am I telling believers they are wrong and consequently I am under no obligation to defend it. I have also not asserted that God does not exist; I have stated that I am an atheist which means I personally do not believe in the existence of God. That's not quite the same thing.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by GoSkirtGo »

moonshadow wrote:
pelmut wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:43 pm
STEVIE wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:35 am I know that if there was a dispute that my only legal protection would only
be applicable if I was transgendered. That is the law as it stands here and now.
I don't know if the law in Scotland differs on this point, but the law in England would
certainly protect you.  There are very few exceptions to the rule that an employer
can impose clothing rules which only apply to one sex; in ordinary employment, men
and women are equally entited to wear skirts or trousers as long as they comply with
the company's dress code and safety rules.  Transgender people don't get any special
treatment in this respect.
In the U.S., while it's understood that terminating or otherwise discriminating against someone
for their gender identity is now considered illegal (BOSTOCK v. CLAYTON COUNTY GEORGIA).
It is also widely understood that most employment situations in the U.S. are "employment at will",
which means the employee or the employer can terminate the employment for any reason with
or without cause provided it doesn't violate any other form or federal, state, or local law.

So this means that while technically a man probably can't get fired just for wearing a skirt,
he could get fired for no reason at all. So is it moot?

Yes. Yes it is.
Notwithstanding the practical issues in a lawsuit, this would probably be one of the easier discrimination cases to prove. The difficulty is proving the employer's "no reason" firing was pretextual for the real underlying discriminatory motive(s). It helps if you can cite "control" cases where other similarly-situated employees were not fired/reprimanded. Often that is a tall order, but here you likely have at least one if not multiple "controls" if you have female co-workers that were allowed to wear skirts without an issue but you (or other male employees) weren't.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:14 pm
No, society expects, nay demands, that men who wear skirts identify as something that they are not -- which is precisely the same problem but going the other way. (And possibly similar numbers.) Whither equality?
There are societal expectations but “demands”? Where are these rules written that a man in a skirt is demanded to identify as something they are not?

I think this “demand” only occurs in our thoughts. Not societies thoughts
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by Uncle Al »

ScotL wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:30 amI think this “demand” only occurs in our thoughts. Not societies thoughts
Are you sure you want to say this, in this manner :?:
Are we not a part of 'society' :?:

IMO, the general public doesn't really care what a person wears, only that they are decently dressed,
not 'exposing' anything. Quit stating 'the public needs to change before I'll wear a skirt.'
The only way to get the public to change is for you to stand up for yourself and BE THAT CHANGE :!:

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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by ScotL »

Uncle Al wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:50 am
ScotL wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:30 amI think this “demand” only occurs in our thoughts. Not societies thoughts
Are you sure you want to say this, in this manner :?:
Are we not a part of 'society' :?:

IMO, the general public doesn't really care what a person wears, only that they are decently dressed,
not 'exposing' anything. Quit stating 'the public needs to change before I'll wear a skirt.'
The only way to get the public to change is for you to stand up for yourself and BE THAT CHANGE :!:

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
I’m a little confused by this response.

First, I have worn a skirt in public. I want the public that thinks men shouldn’t wear skirts to change. That will increase my comfort levels. Why wouldn’t I want that? And on a more global scale, I want the world in general to be more accepting and inclusive, not exclusive. We should all want that. Especially on this cafe where we are considered “not the normal”.

I wonder if you are taking my “demand” quote out of context. I wrote that in response to a post where they stated “No, society expects, nay demands, that men who wear skirts identify as something that they are not”. I’m asking where the rule demanding this is written/found? Because I don’t think it is a demand.

There are cultural expectations considering gender norms. When they are violated, people talk. But of course they do. People talk about everything. Especially when there are changes to their commonly held beliefs.

But to state that breaking these laws means you have to self-identify as anything is not true. You alone control how you identify.

Until recent times, the common belief was you were male or you were female and there was no other. This myth was somewhat acknowledged to be incorrect with tomboys. But tomboys strive to be more like a man and masculine qualities were generally celebrated. The reality is history shows us that people have been identifying on the spectrum of male to female forever, we just didn’t recognize it and didn’t allow them to be themselves. So they hid it.

We really don’t know much about this and it’s really complicated. More complicated than armchair scientists who pretend to know everything and make global statements about it being wrong. They fail to see that this has been known for a long time and making declarative statements that it’s an unnatural thing or recently invented is proven inaccurate by simple history.

My personal beliefs are we don’t know, but need to. And we don’t know because the science behind gender identity has been usurped by the political and social media worlds and nothing good comes when those two problems interfere with science.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by Uncle Al »

Scotl wrote:I’m a little confused by this response.

First, I have worn a skirt in public. I want the public that thinks men shouldn’t wear skirts to change.
That will increase my comfort levels. Why wouldn’t I want that? And on a more global scale, I want
the world in general to be more accepting and inclusive, not exclusive. We should all want that.
Especially on this cafe where we are considered “not the normal”.
OK - Now you're spouting the 'WOKE' agenda that is not needed here.
Where do you come off saying "Especially on this cafe where we are considered “not the normal" :?:
Everyone here knows they are "Normal". I go out every single day in a shirt & skirt combination or
a dress with a Hawaiian style shirt over the top. That is my normal. My 'comfort level' is at 100%

YOU need to be the change you want to see. Don't be blaming 'the public' for something you have
control over. Wear your skirts with your head held high. Be proud of what you've accomplished
when you do your normal things like, getting groceries, going to the hardware store, etc.
When you're out, it's just another day. You're comfortable, not conforming to what you think
the rest of the public wants. They really don't give a rats nest about what you're wearing.
They're more concerned with their own agenda than to be bothered by seeing a man in a skirt.

Uncle Al
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Kilted Organist/Musician
Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-202 ? (and the beat goes on ;) )
When asked 'Why the Kilt?'
I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by pelmut »

Uncle Al wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:12 am Everyone here knows they are "Normal".
Are you accusing me of being normal?     :-)
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by crfriend »

ScotL wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:17 amBut to state that breaking these laws means you have to self-identify as anything is not true. You alone control how you identify.
We seem to have a communications problem here. There are no laws that I am aware of in any reasonable jurisdiction that states whatever men or women should wear other than to cover certain parts of their bodies. Legislatures, courts, and sometimes communities make those, with the last usually known as "bylaws".

In the case of Virgin Atlantic, we have a private employer establishing rules of conduct which are quite different than laws as above. If you don't like the terms, you don't have to work for that employer. Full stop. From appearances, the Virgin rules state something akin to, "flight crews may choose which uniform option is closer to their alignment". Note that is says precisely nothing about style choice -- it's about alignment. The implication there is that even if you don't tick the "trans-*" box on the HR forms it will be ticked for you if you adopt the skirted option -- which no straight guy is going to go for.
Until recent times, the common belief was you were male or you were female and there was no other. This myth was somewhat acknowledged to be incorrect with tomboys. But tomboys strive to be more like a man and masculine qualities were generally celebrated. The reality is history shows us that people have been identifying on the spectrum of male to female forever, we just didn’t recognize it and didn’t allow them to be themselves. So they hid it.
Nice thesis, but it fails to take into account the overall hardening of viewpoints and "allowed" behaviours that's been happening in the last 40+ years. How do I know? I've been watching it for all that time, and not much liking what I've seen. Men are now "toxic" and feared (at at the very least reviled) and been shoved off into the far corner of society, and that is starting to come home to roost in the forms of all manner of grotesque behaviours.

I was raised in a family of stoics; the only one who really showed any emotion at all was my grandmother (bless her heart!); the guys (my grandfather and my father) kept it hidden, but I happen to know that they felt the entire range of human emotion. How do I know that they felt it? Because every once in a while they'd crack and some of it'd show. Relating a bit how, in the very early 1980s -- before the worst of the societal rot was setting in -- my grandfather needed to get angioplasty (back when they were still doing it without stents) done because of heart problems and, in spite of being an MD of some renown, was terrified by the prospect. My dad picked up on this, and one time actually broke down in my arms crying over it. So much for stoicism, and had they spoken of it earlier things would have been a Hell of a lot easier. Finally, my grand-dad was admitted to a hospital in Boston about a block north of the one he helped run from the '50s to the late '70s, and as I was working a lot in Boston at the time visited him every day in hospital to cheer him up and calm him down a bit; being the emotional one in the family (having rejected the Stoic ideals early on) I was the logical one for the job. He was released and came home three days later, and nobody -- even once -- gave me crap for being "high strung" and "emotional" again. I used my tool-set to its utmost that time, and face it, emotion -- like intellect -- is little more than a tool in the kit. If you don't have the full range, you're missing something important. It's not just for the gals, no matter what the radical "feminists" will try telling you.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by Brad »

When a man wears a skirt, others tend to want to assign intention. Is he gay? Trans? Mentally ill? A pervert? A pedophile? Looking for attention? etc etc and blah blah blah. But a woman wears a skirt and nobody questions her intentions. Why can't people just accept that someone of the male gender decided to wear a skirt because he wanted to and for no other reason?
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by crfriend »

Brad wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:32 pmWhy can't people just accept that someone of the male gender decided to wear a skirt because he wanted to and for no other reason?
It is so nice to realise that someone else has come to the same conclusion. I'm curious why the bar seems so high.
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Re: Forbes: ACLU: Forcing Flight Attendants To Dress As Either Male Or Female Is Illegal

Post by ScotL »

Uncle Al wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:12 am
Scotl wrote:I’m a little confused by this response.

First, I have worn a skirt in public. I want the public that thinks men shouldn’t wear skirts to change.
That will increase my comfort levels. Why wouldn’t I want that? And on a more global scale, I want
the world in general to be more accepting and inclusive, not exclusive. We should all want that.
Especially on this cafe where we are considered “not the normal”.
OK - Now you're spouting the 'WOKE' agenda that is not needed here.
Where do you come off saying "Especially on this cafe where we are considered “not the normal" :?:
Everyone here knows they are "Normal". I go out every single day in a shirt & skirt combination or
a dress with a Hawaiian style shirt over the top. That is my normal. My 'comfort level' is at 100%

YOU need to be the change you want to see. Don't be blaming 'the public' for something you have
control over. Wear your skirts with your head held high. Be proud of what you've accomplished
when you do your normal things like, getting groceries, going to the hardware store, etc.
When you're out, it's just another day. You're comfortable, not conforming to what you think
the rest of the public wants. They really don't give a rats nest about what you're wearing.
They're more concerned with their own agenda than to be bothered by seeing a man in a skirt.

Uncle Al
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Wow. That seems like an awfully angry response. Did I do something to you? Let me know if I did so I can apologize. I don’t think we should be arguing/yelling but do think we should be discussing/debating. So if a post of mine was taken as me attacking you, that was not my intention.

Stating we should be a tolerant society is not “WOKE”. I feel like using the term “woke” is an attempt to denigrate me. I hope that wasn’t your purpose because I don’t appreciate being called that. I hope you can clarify.

Stating an opinion should not be stated here is censorship. Rather than suppress my opinions, tell me what you think society should be. If you don’t think we should be tolerant of others, how do you think we should be? How should we deal with people who are different than us?

Did you see the quotes on my post stating “not the normal”? Who the F is normal? What the F is normal? The majority of western society does not see men wearing skirts as a “normal” thing. Normal is defined as “conforming to a standard; usual, typical or expected.” Men wearing skirts is not “conforming to a standard”, is not “usual” male dress, is not “typical” male dress nor “expected” for men to dress in a skirt. I used quotes because although its technically true by definition, I don’t think “normal” is a word we should use to validate people.

The written word lacks the nuances that come with the spoken word. But I feel like you've jumped to chastising me with the “where do you come off…” and hope you can clarify your intentions here also. If that wasn’t your intention to chastise, good.

Also, I full on acknowledge that I need to be the change I want to see. Hence why I am wearing skirts more and more and building confidence. Outside of criminal events though, solutions to problems always require compromise from both sides. It is my thought, that both I and society need to change. I need to be more confident and society needs to be more tolerant of people wearing what they want. If this wasn’t apparent to you from my previous posts, I dont know what to say.

But id like to say, Id like to have these conversations without negativity. Right now, I feel like your post to me is pretty caustic. If that’s not your intention, I will accept that because I know the written word can be misconstrued. But please let me know your intentions.
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