New York Times article

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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crfriend
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Re: New York Times article

Post by crfriend »

More than "simple, sensible, & masculine" clothes is that society's view of a guy in anything but drab is somehow "defective" needs to change -- and the media needs to get that message (unless they already have and don't care or see a profit in the current reporting). Unless attitudes shift, it's going to forever be "more of the same".
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denimini
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Re: New York Times article

Post by denimini »

Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:53 am
Any garments aimed at men will only have a chance of acceptance and challenging the "trouser tyranny" if they are:
  • Simple

    Sensible

    Masculine
True perhaps for garments aimed at men who are:
  • Conservative

    Economic rationalists

    Self conscious
Otherwise the garments could be:
  • Cheerful

    Fun

    Gender neutral
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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mishawakaskirt
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Re: New York Times article

Post by mishawakaskirt »

Ralph wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:59 pm
...
The other bit of discouraging detail in the Times article is the way they emphasise the "genderfluid" or "genderqueer" identity of the dress-wearers. Why does it have to be "Mx. So-and-so", not just ordinary "Mr. So-and-so"?

[EDIT] Ah, I just hadn't read far enough before writing the above complaint. Now I see they move on to cisgender men who enjoy the same benefits as the genderfluid examples.

It is discouraging, being boxed into the buzz and fad terms of gender fluid, gender queer.

The clothing I wear doesn't change my sex no does it change my gender. I feel just as male in a skirt as I do in jeans. Do women feel more Male when they wear jeans? I'd like to know.
If I put on a plastic bag, does it make me trash? If I put on a fireman's uniform, does it make me a fire fighter?
Short answer, no I'm neither.
If a woman can wear a skirt or jeans and still be a woman. Why can't men in jeans or a skirt still be a man?

I can control what I wear , but I can't control what others think of me, for some of you I know you take the "F" what others think. But, no matter how much I try, I just can't get there. I do care about what others think.

Thanks to the media, people have been told what to think of me when I wear a skirt. Application of a label I don't want.
The gender soup, just muddies up everything. He or she, That was once just a no brainer. Now it's like uh uh uh , I'm Not sure what to call you.
Years down the road I think we will see more harm than good out of this gender soup craze.
Mishawakaskirt @2wayskirt on Twitter

Avoid the middle man, wear a kilt or skirt.
Coder
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Re: New York Times article

Post by Coder »

denimini wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:25 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:53 am
Any garments aimed at men will only have a chance of acceptance and challenging the "trouser tyranny" if they are:
  • Simple

    Sensible

    Masculine
True perhaps for garments aimed at men who are:
  • Conservative

    Economic rationalists

    Self conscious
Otherwise the garments could be:
  • Cheerful

    Fun

    Gender neutral
I don't mean to be a pessimist, but how many guys are out there like that (Cheerful/fun/gender neutral)? Stereotypes are out there for a reason - they aren't necessarily true but generally form because of common behaviors. Also, for the majority of men - my guess is they don't want to be mistaken for women - and clothing is a easy signifier of someone's gender (it's like the "Dummy's guide to what gender I am"). Just look at the NYT article - will your average red blooded male respond to the "queerness" and say, "Oh yeah, that'll help me find a mate"?

And also... I work with a ton of super liberal people - the men dress like boring men who wear what everyone else does. Oh, they may add some flair with brightly colored socks (REBEL!!!!), but anything approaching a fun shirt and they have to fit into a specific demographic - I'll let you guess what that is. Not being mean - I'm just saying even the liberals stay within their confined lanes.

I don't mind bright colors - in fact would love to wear them - but I'm barely out of the gate with "masculine" colors and styles and I don't think I can feel comfortable yet because anything flamboyant might be mistaken, let alone a simple skirt, as a gender signal.
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Re: New York Times article

Post by pelmut »

Coder wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:43 pm
... for the majority of men - my guess is they don't want to be mistaken for women
If men and women (and anyone else) were all treated equally, it wouldn't matter.  The problems are coming from categorising people and then treating them differently according to the category they appear to fit.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Sinned
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Re: New York Times article

Post by Sinned »

The first two I have no problem with but if I recall we have had several discussions about the meaning of "masculine" and whose viewpoint you are using to define it. Difficult.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Dust
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Re: New York Times article

Post by Dust »

pelmut wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:39 pm
Coder wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:43 pm
... for the majority of men - my guess is they don't want to be mistaken for women
If men and women (and anyone else) were all treated equally, it wouldn't matter.  The problems are coming from categorising people and then treating them differently according to the category they appear to fit.
People act and dress in part to show others who they are and how they wish to be treated. When people want to be treated as part of a category, they try to dress and act the part.

Men and women may someday be treated as equals in most ways (I think in many ways we've passed that point), but they will never be treated the same. We are different physically, psychologically, and spiritually (and reproductive/sexual tensions will always be there, too). While all persons are unique, we do have our differences, and like to express them. If something goes mainstream (say those colorful socks) some people will just find a new way to express their uniqueness (maybe that funky shirt).

We here are the cafe seen to be in one of two camps: those who hope for skirt wearing to become a non event, and those who do it because it is an event. I know that's an oversimplification, but I think if skirt wearing became mainstream, some guys here would find something crazier to wear.
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Re: New York Times article

Post by Faldaguy »

by Dust » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:15 pm

...While all persons are unique, we do have our differences, and like to express them. If something goes mainstream (say those colorful socks) some people will just find a new way to express their uniqueness (maybe that funky shirt).

We here are the cafe seen to be in one of two camps: those who hope for skirt wearing to become a non event, and those who do it because it is an event. I know that's an oversimplification, but I think if skirt wearing became mainstream, some guys here would find something crazier to wear.
Thanks for the smile Dust. I do think it is an oversimplification, but the basic notion that some of us at SC may wear our skirts because it is "an event", though likely true, may miss that the skirt itself has so many variations you need not give up the comfort, or depart the "mainstream" by finding something "crazier" as the range within the garment offers all the opportunities you need to create 'an event'! I rather enjoy the 'event' as well as the hope and comfort of seeking skirt wearing by men as normal. Being stuck in conventionality is a drag on genuine diversity, new learning, and human development -- so, yes I have a secondary agenda beyond my comfort and personal expression -- but I doubt many of us are gonna feel deprived of our 'event making' when MIS becomes the norm -- but maybe we will show a little more fashion flair and catch up with the ladies! :D
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Re: New York Times article

Post by STEVIE »

I guess that my skirt wearing event days are so far in the dim and distant past that I rather think of them as ancient history.
In terms of norms, dresses and skirts are my clothes of choice on a routine daily basis. Trouser times have become the bigger event and would cause considerable comment from a lot of folks.
My choices/tastes will run along fairly middle of the road lines. I don't do macho or ultra femme but try to strike a balance that is comfortable for me and believable in the eyes of the beholder.
While I know that I have affected some people in terms of certain life aspects I have no idea of any influence on anyone else's fashion choices. Never had that feedback.
From experience though I would say that I have seen far less of the "disbelieving stare" that was common enough not so long ago. I also see a lot of teenage kids in town these days and their reactions are nil these days too. A few short years ago there would have been stares and probably some verbal hassle.
I have become almost invisible and if that is an indication of progress for us, I will take it quite happily.
I won't comment on the gender queer aspect as I know my own reasons and motivations well enough to satisfy myself.
Anyone else will have theirs and anything else is just hype and is irrelevant.
As for fashion, tee dress and white sneakers today, a la mode in my own unique way and the sunshine beckons too.
Have a nice day y'all!
Steve.
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Re: New York Times article

Post by moonshadow »

I know I'm shouting in the wind here, but I just thought I'd weigh in...

I honestly don't care about gender politics, or how the media reports on people like us, or otherwise.

Journalism is always going to have a flare of opinion weaved into every article, no matter how unbiased the journalist may attempt to be. This website (skirtcafe.org) could be considered a form of "journalism" as we all report on our various skirt wearing experiences and how it effects our lives individually.

People have the right to formulate their own opinions. My advice to anyone who is that greatly bothered by "gender identity politics", write a letter to the editor of the said paper, and air your grievance.

I try to accept and respect the opinions of others as they try to understand the evolving world of gender norms. Lord knows I'm no expert on the subject. It seems I learn something new every day, and woe unto me if I ever perch myself on some type of pedestal. I am NOT the gold standard of the "Skirt Wearing Man".

I am trying to live my life in a society that is becoming increasingly more and more free spirited, and as that freedom bandwidth gets wider and wider, I must accept that I too will share that space with people who may fly against my world view.

Hold the opinions you wish, but if the media says I'm trans, I shall lose no sleep over it. I know what I am, and as I've said a hundred times before, I've been called a hell of a lot worse!
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Re: New York Times article

Post by Sinned »

I agree with Moon on this. Like him, I know what I am and I don't fit into any of the boxes that others try to use. Sort of an odd situation occurred today. I was talking to a customer about the colours that we wear. I said that I wore every colour except green and orange [0] but then qualified that I did in fact have an orange top and skirt but didn't wear them very often. No comment from the customer, not that I expected one.

[0] Nothing against these two colours - just nothing I fancied has come up yet.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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