Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

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aussie08
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Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by aussie08 »

Found this today in Sydney newspaper https://tinyurl.com/47crtk9t [Maybe need to cut and paste]
Interesting comment near end of article "the overall dress code including the question of skirts for boys is still left to individual schools."
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Uncle Al »

:hmmm: ............A positive step forward :!:

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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by STEVIE »

Certainly a good step in the sense that it is a discussion topic.
However, gender neutral is still a far cry from gender equal and I am not arguing that the girls have all the advantages either.
A boy wishing to don a skirt will still have to face formidable challenges.
First, his school hierarchy has to be supportive. That I guess is just a matter of happenstance depending on his location. More importantly his own peers and wider community will impact his freedom of choice for good or ill.
Then there is his own sense of self because we all know that "normal" boys don't wear skirts, don't we?
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Stu »

Unfortunately, this is just a way of (a) giving girls more choice and (b) accommodating trans girls. They pretty much say that, again associating skirts with girls, and with boys who want to be considered as girls, thus reinforcing the idea that skirt = female. Those biological boys who are going to wear skirts, if there are any (which is by no means a given) will be wearing a garment that is designed for and marketed to girls.

I am not sure that's a helpful step for us. I genuinely feel bad that I am always seem to be the negative one on here. I really wish I was seeing positive signs, but I'm not.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Grok »

This particular topic has been discussed before, and unfortunately, I suspect that Stu is right.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

The article specifically said that the skirts and dresses were cut for both males and females. Consequently, a boy wanting to get a uniform dress, for whatever reason, has a dress available to him that is cut for the male physique and probably has some indication on the label that it is such to facilitate the downstream logistics. What more do you want? A tee shirt to wear with it that says, "I wear this because I'm too hyper masculine to limit myself to trousers" ?

I really don't get that attitude ... at all.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Stu »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:32 am
The article specifically said that the skirts and dresses were cut for both males and females.
You believe that? They are going to make some changes to the designs of skirts and dresses so they will fit boys? Sorry, I don't buy it. First, they don't actually need to as we are talking about children and there are few major body shape differences. They will just re-name the girls' skirts and dresses as unisex. Next, will they market these on male as well as female models? Don't hold your breath.

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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Uncle Al »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:32 am
.... A tee shirt .. that says, "I wear this because I'm too hyper masculine to limit myself to trousers" ....
:idea: :idea: :D Dave, you may have found a side business for yourself :D :idea: :idea:

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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by moonshadow »

So, I understand what everyone is saying, yes, Stu is probably correct in his prediction, yet there is still one question. And this is in all seriousness,

What makes a skirt a "female skirt"?

I hear all this talk about "cuts and shapes for a boys body" so as to imply a skirt simply will not fit a male shape. I understand dresses but I'm talking about skirts.

Because if an off the peg "women's" skirt will only fit a female body....then I've been using the wrong restroom all my life!

I'd even hazard a guess that even a uniform dress would probably fit a boy as it's likely to be just a sleeveless jumper style dress, we're not talking about a ball gown here...

Show me one skirt that fits an average woman that would not fit an average man of the same waist size...
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:20 pm
What makes a skirt a "female skirt"?
This is down it the garment's context in Western Civilisation where only women conventionally wear skirts. Full stop. It's really as simple as that, and that's what we're fighting -- a slavish devotion to custom -- and also why it's such a big hill to take.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Ralph »

moonshadow wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:20 pm
What makes a skirt a "female skirt"?
I hear all this talk about "cuts and shapes for a boys body" so as to imply a skirt simply will not fit a male shape. I understand dresses but I'm talking about skirts.
I can only speak for my own body dimensions; obviously everyone is different. But my interpretation is that "female" skirts are designed on the assumption that the waist will be narrower and hips wider than those of a man. My skirts fit rather poorly because my waist is entirely too large, so instead of a convenient nook around which to hang the waistband, I struggle to keep the skirt from sliding down my wide waist and down past my (slightly) narrower hips.

Culturally, I suppose most people would say that a skirt with features associated with femininity - pleats, ruffles, soft fabrics, bright colours, floral patterns, etc. - makes a skirt "female" versus the drab utilitarian skirts we are only just seeing offered to men. Obviously I disagree here, but you see those stereotypes from children's rhymes ("snips and snails... sugar and spice") right down to the symbols on restroom doors.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by moonshadow »

Ralph wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:18 pm
I can only speak for my own body dimensions; obviously everyone is different. But my interpretation is that "female" skirts are designed on the assumption that the waist will be narrower and hips wider than those of a man. My skirts fit rather poorly because my waist is entirely too large, so instead of a convenient nook around which to hang the waistband, I struggle to keep the skirt from sliding down my wide waist and down past my (slightly) narrower hips.
I also have an oddly shaped body (potato on toothpicks), but the same thing that causes a skirt to drop down also causes a pair of trousers to do the same thing.

I wouldn't look good in a tight fitting pencil skirt for this reason, but then again, I know lots of women who have a similar body to me.

I submit that this isn't a male/female thing, but rather a matter of body shape.

An ordinary, average school uniform skirt should fit anyone with the correct waist size. For the chubby amongst us, I do recommend wearing the skirt closer to the waist (like a kilt) rather than on the hip.

A properly sized "womens" top can then hang over the waist if the skirt and pull the whole look back together so the skirt doesn't look too high waisted.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Stu »

I agree with those who point out that the cut of a skirt for a schoolgirl need not be any different to that which would fit a schoolboy - and the same would apply to dresses up to around puberty. The acid test for me will be how school skirts in this part of Australia are marketed. My guess is that they will only ever be modeled by girls because, although they don't say this, the unspoken understanding is that skirts are exclusively a female garment - for girls, not boys. The only reason a boy would agree to wear one - or want t wear one - is if he wanted to be identified as a girl. This is not what happened with trousers when girls started wearing those. Trousers were reclassified as for both sexes - skirts are not being so reclassified. Consequently, I see this as a reification of the SKIRT = FEMALE cultural maxim rather than a challenge to it.

As I said, I would dearly love to be wrong.
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Re: Sydney NSW School adopting a gender-neutral Uniform

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Ralph wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:18 pm
I can only speak for my own body dimensions; obviously everyone is different. But my interpretation is that "female" skirts are designed on the assumption that the waist will be narrower and hips wider than those of a man. My skirts fit rather poorly because my waist is entirely too large, so instead of a convenient nook around which to hang the waistband, I struggle to keep the skirt from sliding down my wide waist and down past my (slightly) narrower hips.
And that would be no different from a woman of you size and shape. I see a lot of woman who have bigger waist lines than hips. So what do they do they wear it on their stomachs like I do. When I buy a skirt I go by my waist size and if possible try it on first. I try for a snug fit at my waist and they usually stay put. I have only two skirts out of 60 or so that I have trouble with staying up. I usually wear braces with them and a pull over top.
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