Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by moonshadow »

Yes, my distaste for Tennessee has grown over the last few years. I find the state highly over-rated. The only reason it maintains such high popularity is due to the music scene ( Memphis and Nashville) and the Knoxville metro area which includes Pigeon Forge. If not for that it would have a national reputation similar to that of Mississippi.

The people are okay... but proud to the point of being smug and almost a bit arrogant about how awesome it is. And if any Tennesseean reads this, I'm sure they'll tell me to go f**k myself and tell me they don't want Yankee trash like me in their state anyway... because that's just how they are.

My opinion has NOTHING to do with conservative politics either, as a matter of fact, my all time favorite state is West Virginia which is more Republican than even Tennessee (every WV county carried Trump in 2016), so it's not that. I don't know, I just don't really care for it down there. I think the pride thing gets me... I admire working class humility, and West Virginia has a lot of that.

Tennessee is VERY hostile to non-traditional and non-Judea-Christian morals. Even going so far to ensure their municipalities are forbidden to enact progressive policies on many issues despite being a home rule state. West VA on the other hand seems to let their cities and municipal governments operate according to their given populous which has paved the way for several progressive victories in America's reddest state.

Nah.... as for Tennessee, I go there when I have business, but I don't spend much leisure time there. I usually make the trek north to West Virginia or to Kentucky. Kentucky is a pretty cool state too.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl said, (In response to my saying it is the federal government's duty to provide health care to all)
Then explain the overt mess that exists in the USA today where the entire "system" is more of a wealth-transfer mechanism than a provider of health care.


In response to Dust's statement that the government should stay out of health care I presented a case for it being the federal government's duty to provide universal healthcare. I NEVER said that the federal government has stepped up to that duty. As to why the federal government hasn't stepped up to that duty, I can summarize it in two words: Republican obstructionism.

For the record, during the original debate over the ACA I saw that totaling, local, state and federal expenditures 45% of the country's total health bill was being picked up by government. While we're at it, do the arithmetic. If government took over the totality of health care, had the same success in effecting economies that all of the other developed countries have managed to create and get the improved results, then health care would only cost the total economy 50% of what it does and that's only 5 percentage points above the current governmental outlays. In the meantime, there's the net overall savings in healthcare outlays of 45%. In addition, people would be healthier meaning less lost time at work while people are taking care of the healthcare needs of themselves, their elderly family members and their kids. Is it any wonder that major corporations such as General Motors were advocating for universal healthcare when the ACA was being debated?
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by moonshadow »

I think we lost our shot at universal healthcare for the next several decades. There is no way the current structure of the Supreme Court will abide.

I just penned (and erased) more on that topic. It got pretty dark. I don't have high hopes for the future and I'll leave it at that.

I try to live for today and not fret over tomorrow, for eventually I expect the things and people I love to be taken from me, and I, like everyone else my age will be left with nothing, and when that day comes (and it will) I'll regret a past filled with cynicism and would have wished that I had appreciated the free air I breathed, back when I still could...

Eehh... enough of that... (there I go again) :wink:
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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moonshadow wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:45 pmI think we lost our shot at universal healthcare for the next several decades. There is no way the current structure of the Supreme Court will abide.
It's gone in perpetuity unless we can take the Republic back, and there's not a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening. Give it up.
I try to live for today and not fret over tomorrow, for eventually I expect the things and people I love to be taken from me, and I, like everyone else my age will be left with nothing, and when that day comes (and it will) I'll regret a past filled with cynicism and would have wished that I had appreciated the free air I breathed, back when I still could...
It's a bit more complex for me at the moment as I look off into the horizon and see something promising. We shall see where that path leads. So, for the moment, I need to think about tomorrows -- and we don't know how many variations there may be.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I’m reading Doris Kearns Goodwin’s comparative study of the careers of Lincoln, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson, “Leadership.” One of the common characteristics to effective leadership that she identifies is an unassailable optimism that a worthwhile goal, such as universal health care, can be achieved and will be if enough people keep pushing for it.

Not only do I feel that optimism about universal health care, but I also feel it about getting the US from its current system of government of the people, by the millionaires and for the billionaires. Say what you will about Joe Biden, but he’s already started chipping away at the portions of the tax code that’s created the obscene wealth inequality we’re all suffering under.

Before you deride, please give us an example of a cynic who accomplished anything that was worthwhile.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Dust »

Why is this thread back? I thought it died. I'm half surprised it wasn't locked... Oh well, here's a scatter shot if thoughts on the diverse topics raised since it was brought back:

I've been to Tennessee. In a Utilikilt. Multiple times. No issues.

You could say that "unassailable optimism" is exactly what Trump brought in 2016. "Make America great again"?

Wealth inequality isn't necessarily good or bad. It's what people do with it. The wealthy have a moral obligation to help those less fortunate. Most fail, but I'd rather people fail at this with their own money than with mine.

We need to rethink health. Not find a new was to pay for healthcare, but start looking at how we take care of ourselves. Diet. Exercise. Not "miracle cures" that cause more problems. Get people away from desks and taking care of themselves. There are no easy fixes here. And simply throwing more money at the problem won't work either.

I don't care what polls say. Morality isn't defined by law or public opinion. Many a terrible, genocidal regimes had widespread support and changed the laws to make what they did legal.

Thank you, Carl, for pointing out the distinctions on what "freedom of religion" vs. "freedom from religion" mean. Words matter.

Moon, likewise, thank you for pointing out the distinction between supposedly "christian" attitudes and truly being "Christ like." I would say your observation about all too many political leaders being "satanic" is all too spot on, probably more than you realize. Oh, and I think you'd make a great Christian, BTW. Better than the majority claiming the label today.

Which leads me to just simply add, we need more disagreeable people. People to afraid to even have these kinds of discussions are part of why we are in this mess today. Thank you all.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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Dust wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:15 pmThank you, Carl, for pointing out the distinctions on what "freedom of religion" vs. "freedom from religion" mean. Words matter.
Hilariously, I got "called out" in a PM on that very topic. I dismissed it. The topic is relevant, real, and a present danger to anyone who dares to defy "The Norm". We need to use language wisely and accurately.
Which leads me to just simply add, we need more disagreeable people. People too afraid to even have these kinds of discussions are part of why we are in this mess today. Thank you all.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Dust said,
You could say that "unassailable optimism" is exactly what Trump brought in 2016. "Make America great again"?

OMG ... Dust, you need to get yourself a new dictionary. Trump is the polar opposite of a good leader. He's dishonest, uncaring (except for himself), cynical, hot tempered, utterly unpredictable and incompetent.

No, he's not a business tycoon; he just played one on TV. He made a small fortune in business the old-fashioned way; he inherited a big one and systematically whittled it down to a small one by a nearly unbroken chain of business failures. Only the money and celebrity he made on television bailed his sorry financial butt out.
Wealth inequality isn't necessarily good or bad.
There will always be rich and poor; but the kind of wealth inequality that we have in the US goes beyond toxic. I doubt that there's been a time in human history when in a major, prosperous nation, the 3 most wealthy men had a combined net worth greater than over 50% of the population combined. And they're just at the top of the 1%. Do you have any conception of how much power that affords those people?

Let me give you a notion, Mackenzie Scott, the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon, has made it her goal to die broke after having given away the wealth she received in her divorce settlement. Following that course, she has become far and away the most generous person in US history. Ms Scott is also more wealthy now than when she started giving away her billions of dollars. She literally cannot give her money away fast enough!

When I said the First Amendment gives us freedom from religion, I meant that any number of Supreme Court rulings have made it crystal clear that under the First Amendment that just as the government cannot ban one set of religious beliefs or another; the government also cannot impose one sect's beliefs on the rest of us. Hence, the banning of school prayer. When I said that if you look at the polls, most people do not hold your beliefs on abortion, I wasn't saying you were mistaken in your beliefs of what's moral and what isn't; believe what you like. I was saying that you can't expect to impose your morals on everyone else just because you hold them fervently. In a democracy, majority rules.

When the majority doesn't, that's proof that the body politic's claim to being a democracy is badly compromised. Up to a point, Carl's right; our democracy is very badly compromised.

Btw, have you discussed the hypothetical I posed with an adult female of good judgement?
we need more disagreeable people

The last thing we need is more disagreeable people. Apparently, you've missed an important memo; it's quite possible and in fact preferable and more constructive, to disagree without being disagreeable.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 amThe last thing we need is more disagreeable people. Apparently, you've missed an important memo; it's quite possible and in fact preferable and more constructive, to disagree without being disagreeable.
The first point he was trying to make is that the world needs more people with the guts to speak up when PC rears its ugly head and call it out for the idiocy that it is. That last point is precisely true, and hilariously I have quite a few friends who disagree vehemently with me on some things and I with them on others -- and we remain civil just the same and get along fine.

Just because you disagree with somebody does not mean you have to hate him. Policies are something else; one can detest bad policy and do one's level best to get it stamped out or changed -- and change cannot happen without conversation and occasionally debate.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am Dust said,
You could say that "unassailable optimism" is exactly what Trump brought in 2016. "Make America great again"?

OMG ... Dust, you need to get yourself a new dictionary. Trump is the polar opposite of a good leader. He's dishonest, uncaring (except for himself), cynical, hot tempered, utterly unpredictable and incompetent.

No, he's not a business tycoon; he just played one on TV. He made a small fortune in business the old-fashioned way; he inherited a big one and systematically whittled it down to a small one by a nearly unbroken chain of business failures. Only the money and celebrity he made on television bailed his sorry financial butt out.
I never said he was a great leader. I said he had the quality that you attributed to great leadership. Maybe optimism isn't everything...

What did he sell to people in his campaign? Optimism that he could change the corrupt and broken system.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am
Wealth inequality isn't necessarily good or bad.
There will always be rich and poor; but the kind of wealth inequality that we have in the US goes beyond toxic. I doubt that there's been a time in human history when in a major, prosperous nation, the 3 most wealthy men had a combined net worth greater than over 50% of the population combined. And they're just at the top of the 1%. Do you have any conception of how much power that affords those people?
You do realize that most civilizations throughout history relied on slave labor? That the great pyramids were vanity projects of the rulers of Egypt? That the Romans were a decadent aristocracy made possible by literal slavery? That the Aztecs killed people they conquered in vast numbers? I could go on, but you get the idea.

Yes, small numbers of people have power today. That's going to happen. But people have more upward mobility today than ever before. The poor are better off in our society than ever. The richest man alive is an immigrant who at one point had essentially nothing.

The question becomes what the wealthy do with it. I'm not cutting them slack there.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am Let me give you a notion, Mackenzie Scott, the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon, has made it her goal to die broke after having given away the wealth she received in her divorce settlement. Following that course, she has become far and away the most generous person in US history. Ms Scott is also more wealthy now than when she started giving away her billions of dollars. She literally cannot give her money away fast enough!
Good for her. Perhaps she is the modern equivalent of the wealthy widow helping the poor. That was a thing back in biblical times and prior. I don't know much about this woman, however. Maybe she realizes that she stole it all from her ex with the help of the divorce courts, and is having pangs of guilt. Who knows...
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am When I said the First Amendment gives us freedom from religion, I meant that any number of Supreme Court rulings have made it crystal clear that under the First Amendment that just as the government cannot ban one set of religious beliefs or another; the government also cannot impose one sect's beliefs on the rest of us. Hence, the banning of school prayer. When I said that if you look at the polls, most people do not hold your beliefs on abortion, I wasn't saying you were mistaken in your beliefs of what's moral and what isn't; believe what you like. I was saying that you can't expect to impose your morals on everyone else just because you hold them fervently. In a democracy, majority rules.

When the majority doesn't, that's proof that the body politic's claim to being a democracy is badly compromised. Up to a point, Carl's right; our democracy is very badly compromised.
Good thing we don't live in a true democracy. What's the old adage? Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner?

We have constitutional protections both from democracy running away and from government overreach. I worry about losing those protections.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am Btw, have you discussed the hypothetical I posed with an adult female of good judgement?
I have a few women in my life that I think would qualify, most are pro life. I think they would do the difficult good, and try to care for mother and child alike.

I've discussed similar hypotheticals in the past, including with women. I did have one flip her lid. I've had others think about it rationally.

I also know a woman for whom something similar wasn't a hypothetical. She told me that as a teen she was raped and as a result found herself pregnant. It was hard, but she carried her daughter to term, and gave her up in an open adoption, and has stayed in touch. She went on to have two more kids. They've met and spent time with their half sister. I've seen the pictures, and played with her other two kids.

Adoption is a wonderful thing! I know quite a few people who were adopted, and some awesome adoptive parents. My wife and I have discussed it ourselves.

When I was growing up, my parents used to volunteer extensively for a local charity that helped women in crisis pregnancies. It provided support both before and after the mother gave birth to her child, whether she gave them up for adoption or kept them and raised them herself. They actually probably did the most for those who kept their child despite hardship. Diapers, clothes, even a place to stay in many cases. Some of the mothers were little more than children themselves. I learned years later that my parents actually walked away because the group's leadership started making it more about their idea of christian evangelization than actually helping people.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:39 am
we need more disagreeable people

The last thing we need is more disagreeable people. Apparently, you've missed an important memo; it's quite possible and in fact preferable and more constructive, to disagree without being disagreeable.
By disagreeable, I'm referring to the opposite of the psychological trait of "agreeableness". Agreeableness is the tendency to "go along to get along", so to speak. Agreeable people don't rock the boat. The don't ask tough questions. They don't question authority.

WWJD?

Christ called out the hypocrisy of the religious leadership of His day. He flipped tables when money changers set up in the temple, defrauding people. He preached the Bread of Life discourse (John 6) even though he lost followers in droves as a result. He was so disagreeable, that one of His inner circle betrayed him, turning him in to die one of the most terrible deaths that has ever been devised.

That's what I mean by disagreeable. We need people who question authority. We need people who argue with authority. We need people who will stand on principle, even if it costs them everything.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl,

Dust is quite capable of speaking for himself; you don't need to speak for him. Except, that he's now trying to say he didn't mean what he said. Perhaps he misspoke; if so, he should own that and be more careful in his word usage and hereafter say what he means and means what he says rather making up new meanings for commonly understood words.

Dust,

The great pyramids were NOT built by slave labor. Best evidence says that the pyramids served as public works projects to keep the farmers busy in the off-seasons so they didn't get troublesome notions like organizing a rebellion. What previous societies did and how they did it is entirely beside the point, we are perfectly capable of doing better; much better and therefore should.

Economic and sociological studies demonstrate that in the United States, upward mobility is much lower than it was in the post-World War II era and is dropping because the uber rich have tilted the playing field in their direction. To quote Warren Buffett, "There has been a class war in this country ... and we (the uber rich) won!" Btw, he meant that statement as an indictment of the direction our society has been taking.

In that same vein, during the pandemic, while the middle and lower classes struggled to tread water, the uber rich got richer yet.

Kudos to your friends and relatives who have aided young mothers in distress and to the woman who chose to carry that child of rape. Shouldn't other women in that situation have the full range of choices available to them in a safe, legal setting?

What would Jesus do? The New Testament shows us how he almost always operated. He made a point of befriending and advocating for the scorned and downtrodden. He was constantly verbally jousting with the Pharisees; who were trying to get the Israelites back into God's good graces by getting them to abide by all of the picky rules and arcane practices in their sacred scripture.

For instance, one Sabbath day the Pharisees busted Jesus for letting his disciplines harvest grain while they were walking through the wheat fields. Jesus first reminded his critics that declaring the Sabbath to be a day of rest was created for man not man for the Sabbath. Then he went on to remind them that David, when he was still a guerilla warrior, broke into the inner sanctuary of the temple to commandeer the food that was sacrificed for the priests. In short, he did what he had to do to feed his people even though he knowingly was breaking too many rules to count.

In short, you have to look at the totality of the circumstances before you judge an action; not just cite a rule. Jesus did this many times, according to the Gospels.

Jesus was constantly going against the powers that be, but -- with the exception of his outburst at the temple -- always in a civil, polite manner. He is the model of disagreeing without being disagreeable. That's why he was so effective in those verbal duels and why those exchanges have come down to us through the centuries.

You say you didn't exactly mean we need more disagreeable people ... if so, please do yourself a favor and from now on say what you mean and mean what you say.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

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Come to think of it Dust, you didn't directly answer my hypothetical, 'If your 12-year old daughter had been raped and impregnated by a relative, would you really require her to carry her pregnancy to term?' However, I'll go out on that limb and take your response as an affirmative answer.

You're entitled to your feelings on the subject, but by the same token, if I were to become aware that you put your hypothetical daughter in such a position, I would report you to the authorities for child abuse and would hope they would treat the matter accordingly. Including the child welfare authorities requiring that she have an abortion. I'd rather that she go through that than put her through the double torture of a daily reminder of what was done to her and then her having to give up the (hopefully) beautiful baby that resulted.

I'm sure that you would be far beyond outraged that I had been able to impose MY standards on you and your family in that manner.

If so, now you know how those of us who disagree with you on whether or not abortions should be legal without any restrictions, except those that are medically necessary, feel about the matter. As the Florida Supreme Court put it in a case challenging the constitutionality of a law limiting the availability of abortions (Florida's state constitution protects the right of adult women to get abortions) (btw, that provision was passed by a public referendum), "It's hard to imagine a more personal decision." And, I would add one that is more fraught. The only women who obtain abortions without a great deal of thought, agony and soul-searching are those who have no other means of birth control available to them.

To be clear, I fully understand and respect your concern for the sanctity of human life, but I also empathize with the women who have to make the heart-wrenching decision of which is the greater of two life-affirming alternatives. For someone other than that woman -- or in the case of a young female who has not come to the legal age of adulthood, their parents -- to presume to decide is to deny that woman's personhood.

That's how a good Roman Catholic such as Joe Biden can be against abortion in principle but for its being legal.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Dust »

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I've been working full time (and then some), in person, with a commute.

I was putting together a long response to the other issues, but hadn't quite finished. Oh well.

No, I wasn't directly answering your hypothetical question on raping little kids and killing unborn babies. Not really what I wanted to talk about. It also felt like you were trying to trap me (as the Pharasees tried to do to Christ) with a fringe case. I hope that wasn't your intent.

Rape accounts for a tiny fraction of all abortions, so it really says something that abortion advocates like to hang their hat on it. Last I heard it was something like 1% or less of abortions. The way some politicians and other advocates talk about these issues, however, makes it sound like most abortions are for rape and rape is exceedingly common in our society. Neither are true.

Rape is a crime. One of the most serious, heinous crimes there is. Add in a young child as the victim, and it can't get much worse. Thank God it's fairly rare. Let's all pray it becomes even more rare.

But we punish the perpetrator of crimes, not another innocent person (the child). Killing an innocent person because of the crime of his or her father is just barbaric. We shouldn't be doing this in a supposedly civilized society.

Killing the baby will also leave the mother with more scars on top of the rape. Both physical and mental/emotional/spiritual. The later should be obvious, but they are there, even if they aren't visible at first. The former includes higher risk of breast cancer, fertility issues, and difficulty maintaining a pregnancy later in life, as well as the more immediate issues at the time of the abortion. Doing this unnecessarily to an underage mother could itself be seen as child abuse.

As to raising the child of this sort of situation, I'm aware of cases where the child of a teen pregnancy (for any reason) was raised by the teen mother's parents, and treated as their biological mother's younger sibling until the truth of the situation could be properly explained to them. I know people who legitimately have multiple full biological siblings more than 12 years younger than they are, so this seems like a perfectly reasonable approach if you don't wish to give the child up for adoption. This is likely the route I would take in such a situation. After reporting the rape to the police of course.

Lastly, abortion is used by rapists and pedophiles to cover up their crimes. The child of the rape is the most significant evidence of what they have done. And abortion clinics have been caught not reporting (even when required by law) the aborting of pregnancies in girls so young that they could not legally consent, making any sex statutory rape.

Now maybe (since you insist on making this about as young a mother as possible) you are talking about a case where the pregnant girl is having complications because of her young age, having not completed puberty. In that case, intervening to save the life of the mother is justified, even if it inevitably causes the death of her child.

I hope you really are just using the most heart wrenching example you can think of, of the exceedingly rare case of abortion to save the life of the mother, to ensure there is a carve out in the law for this. But since I'm fairly sure there is an exception in the law that lead to this discussion for life-of-the-mother cases, I'm not so sure. I'd hate to think you are on the side of rapists and pedophiles.

Now can we move on to not rape, child abuse, incest, and pedophilia? I really question why anyone is so interested in these topics.
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am No, I wasn't directly answering your hypothetical question on raping little kids and killing unborn babies. Not really what I wanted to talk about. It also felt like you were trying to trap me (as the Pharasees tried to do to Christ) with a fringe case. I hope that wasn't your intent.


I brought up such a case because in the past, even the most Draconian anti-abortion laws made an exception for rape and incest. Apparently, and the rest of your post confirms it, you see no problem with that. Because you have obviously missed it, women are not just mindless breeding stock.
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am But we punish the perpetrator of crimes, not another innocent person (the child). Killing an innocent person because of the crime of his or her father is just barbaric. We shouldn't be doing this in a supposedly civilized society.

According to Roe v. Wade, a fetus is not a person until 24 weeks, the usual time when a fetus is viable. In the Jewish tradition, they're not people until delivery. So, for you to insist otherwise is to insist on impose your view, which is only held by a tiny minority of Americans. Do you really feel justified in imposing such an inflexible response to any and all unwanted pregnancies, no matter the other circumstances involved?
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am Killing the baby will also leave the mother with more scars on top of the rape. Both physical and mental/emotional/spiritual. The later should be obvious, but they are there, even if they aren't visible at first.
No, the latter is not at all obvious. Again, you seem to be assuming that every single Christian believes exactly as you do ... And that's not so, because this Christian, a United Methodist to be precise, sure doesn't.
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am The former includes higher risk of breast cancer, fertility issues, and difficulty maintaining a pregnancy later in life, as well as the more immediate issues at the time of the abortion.

I understand that this allegation is getting a lot of mileage these days, but the fact is, there's no truth to it.
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am Doing this unnecessarily to an underage mother could itself be seen as child abuse.

Only if your assertions are true, which they are not.

It is true that many women who have had abortions often speculate what might have become of the fetus if she had brought it to term, but it is extremely rare for them to feel they made a mistake when they take the next step of rethinking their whole situation at the time.
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am As to raising the child of this sort of situation, I'm aware of cases where the child of a teen pregnancy (for any reason) was raised by the teen mother's parents, and treated as their biological mother's younger sibling until the truth of the situation could be properly explained to them. I know people who legitimately have multiple full biological siblings more than 12 years younger than they are, so this seems like a perfectly reasonable approach if you don't wish to give the child up for adoption.

Do you really have so little respect for the intelligence and self-awareness of the average 12-year old girl as to think that she would somehow miss her belly progressively swelling and all of the drama and agony of her giving birth? Let alone how it all happened? Seriously?
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am Lastly, abortion is used by rapists and pedophiles to cover up their crimes. The child of the rape is the most significant evidence of what they have done. And abortion clinics have been caught not reporting (even when required by law) the aborting of pregnancies in girls so young that they could not legally consent, making any sex statutory rape.

The very idea that somehow a rapist or pedophile would be able to convince a 12-year-old girl to consent to an abortion to cover up what was done to her and that the clinic would then collude by covering up the facts strikes me as so ludicrous that it comments on itself.
Dust wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:37 am Now maybe (since you insist on making this about as young a mother as possible) you are talking about a case where the pregnant girl is having complications because of her young age, having not completed puberty.

Not at all, I was hoping to get you to think about the full implications of what you were supporting. Clearly, I failed.

It's incomprehensible to me how you can be so fixated on banning a relatively safe, relatively simple procedure as to not even give an instant consideration to the notion that sometimes circumstances can be so dire and extreme that such a procedure that can indeed seem barbaric, is the best solution for the people involved and that it should not even be allowed as an option.

Having been of in college when legalizing abortion was, along with a whole lot of other issues, front and center it was demonstrated to be absolutely true that you can make abortion illegal -- as it was at that time -- but you can't keep it from happening.

You ran through a litany of concerns you had for the physical well-being of women who had an abortion; those pale compared to the hazards of amateur abortion procedures performed by untrained people in unsterile conditions, which is what the hoi polloi face. The rich can always find a medical team who will make their unwanted pregnancies go away in sterile, medical facilities. They have the connections to find such people and the money to make the risks worthwhile to the people performing the illegal abortion.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
pelmut
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Re: Teenager wearing a dress harassed by inbred Tennessee hillbilly

Post by pelmut »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:43 am The very idea that somehow a rapist or pedophile would be able to convince a 12-year-old girl to consent to an abortion to cover up what was had been done to her and that the clinic would then collude in this scenario is so ludicrous that it comments on itself.
If the rapist was her father there is a fair chance that he would get away with it, especially if the clinic was operating illegally.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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