I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Coder
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Coder »

STEVIE wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:22 am
Here is an ironic thought, perhaps the Skirt Cafe actually exists as a partial consequence of it too. Poetic justice?
Steve.
I've wondered that as well - although I still think secular culture / early human development brings a lot of this to the fore. The KJV was published in 1611 (did a quick google search), and male/female clothing distinctions have been with us far longer - I'd have to do more research to see how the interpretation of that particular passage has changed over the years. I'm not going to because it doesn't really matter to me anymore, but it would be an interesting study. I've read various articles on it, but they all just compare the modern interpretation to the original - I've never seen a comparative study which looks at how interpretation of it has changed over time.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by STEVIE »

Coder wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:35 pm
The KJV was published in 1611 (did a quick google search), and male/female clothing distinctions have been with us far longer - I'd have to do more research to see how the interpretation of that particular passage has changed over the years. I'm not going to because it doesn't really matter to me anymore, but it would be an interesting study
Like I said, I wish that I had been savvy enough to realise the irrelevance a long time ago.
However, scholarly and public interpretation are quite different animals.
The astute knew well enough, I feel but the attitude and awareness of the common folk was moulded by it.
Here we have The Word of God, in black and white, Authorised by no less a person than King James himself.
The literal truth as handed down by the Church, the legal and educational systems.
The superior people in society in other words and it was accepted without much question.
It certainly would make a most interesting study.
Steve.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

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STEVIE wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:09 pm
Coder wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:35 pm
The KJV was published in 1611 (did a quick google search), and male/female clothing distinctions have been with us far longer - I'd have to do more research to see how the interpretation of that particular passage has changed over the years. I'm not going to because it doesn't really matter to me anymore, but it would be an interesting study
Like I said, I wish that I had been savvy enough to realise the irrelevance a long time ago.
Same here!
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:05 pm
...presenting in public as a woman (usually far from home but there is that advantage here of disguise). I am not at all religious but the deception side of this bothers me.
If you are not using it for nefarious or harmful purposes, where is the deception?  You are expressing in public what you feel in private.  If you suppress your feelings that you ought to be able to appear as a woman when it suits you, that would be deception and it can take a heavy toll on your well-being.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by rivegauche »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:28 am
rivegauche wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:05 pm
...presenting in public as a woman (usually far from home but there is that advantage here of disguise). I am not at all religious but the deception side of this bothers me.
If you are not using it for nefarious or harmful purposes, where is the deception?  You are expressing in public what you feel in private.  If you suppress your feelings that you ought to be able to appear as a woman when it suits you, that would be deception and it can take a heavy toll on your well-being.
I didn't make myself clear. I may present in public as a woman from time to time but even then I don't identify as one. I am acting, and it is fun, nothing more. I always think of myself as male, whatever I am wearing.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by STEVIE »

rivegauche wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:05 pm
There is more to it in my case than just doing it. I agree that the reaction in the street to a man wearing a skirt is almost zero. The reason I still don't do it routinely in public (at work, socialising with friends) is that I have achieved something with my life and it is this I want to be remembered for, not as the guy in the skirt. Not fear - priorities. I wear a skirt as a man in public only far from home.
Hi Rivegauche,
With all due respect, I too have a couple of thoughts on this.
The first is that it is sad that your clothing choices are seen to matter so much that they could overshadow anything else that you may have ever achieved. I rather think that "society" has got the wrong priorities here.
The second is in relation to fear but not yours. Is it possible that you could be in a position to inspire anyone who is struggling to overcome their own fears in relation to how they may choose to cover their bodies.
I also found your "useful" description of the passage puzzling. Much of the anxieties and fears discussed on this site have some basis stemming from its interpretation. Indeed, your own assertion for your legacy could be ascribed there also.
We can only hope that a day may dawn when we can truly say that it does not matter at all.
Steve,
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by moonshadow »

On being remembered,

Don't bother. I hate to break it to everyone here, but we all will be forgotten about by all but our closest family and friends within a day or two after our funerals, and the close family and friends will forget with the passing of a generation.

Very very very few people truly make it to the actual history books.

We are but dust in the wind, our lives only matter to ourselves. That's a fact.

So do what you want, but I ain't worried about leaving no legacy, because I know nobody really gives a....
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Coder »

I’ve had similar concerns but not so much as a long-lasting legacy, but rather short-term. Meaning, being the talk of the water cooler (hey, did you see what coder was wearing?) or perhaps only being know for the skirt and not the work you do.

Those have mostly melted away - partly due to thinking the things moon just wrote about - and partly because I’ve contemplated just how much head space I take up in peoples minds when I’m not in front of them (hint: it’s a number between 0% and 0%).

So the only fear that remains for me is the “here and now” when I’m in front of them - what will they think???? I’m doing much better on that front but still have a way to go.
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moonshadow
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by moonshadow »

Yeah... I don't think our skirts are going to put us up there with Aristotle, Plato, Moses, King James, George Washington, etc.... :lol:
rivegauche
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by rivegauche »

Some of us dabble in subject areas where people who make a difference are remembered. I regularly read stuff written more than 100 years ago and revere those responsible. OK I might not be up there with Plato or my own personal favourite in that band, Aristotle, but some of us do stuff that some (probably just a few, but some) other people think is memorable, so I am happy with this. My stuff brings me prestige now and my work makes differences to people's lives even if my reputation doesn't. There are younger individuals I respect enormously who I want to remember me for my work, not for what I wore. Alan Turing made a major contribution to saving us from the Nazis but they still remember him for something else, even in a more tolerant world. Walking in the street in a skirt no longer frightens the horses but wearing one to work still gets you in national newspapers. Even if I accept the argument that in the long run all of us will be forgotten, most of us like to THINK we will be remembered and that can mean something to us that matters. And no, I am not going to 'prove' my case by telling you what the work is - I have just explained why I am flying below the radar with my skirt wearing.

I am not responsible for other people wearing skirts. If I do it far from home and even one person thinks "If he can do it so can I" well and good, but this is not my duty. I have more important fights to fight. I am under pressure to go on social media but this is where character assassinations can take place if you are found to have been wearing a skirt. It is a much less safe place than the street. Once people have prestige, there those who want to destroy it - sad but true. We live in a world where politicians who advocate putting a woman on a banknote get death threats. There are some very warped individuals out there - though I ill not be intimidated by them neither will I give them ammunition. Doing no harm does not mean none will be done to you. I do not live in fear of being outed - if it happens it happens - much worse things happen to people - but I am not going to volunteer for it.

I have explained my case, but I do not have to justify it to anyone - except myself. Personal priorities.
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Sinned
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Sinned »

rivergauche, thank you for explaining your reasons and I wouldn't condemn you for them. All our environments are different and our careers bring different challenges and satisfactions. I have been involved in the erection of steel-framed building, building shore-based submarine trainers and telephone banking application development. The buildings will eventually be demolished in the cycle of such, a different breed of submarine ( which is already on the cards ) will make the current trainer obsolete and the banking application will be replaced ( it was already in a hybrid situation when I left the bank ). In all cases my contributions on documentation will likely end up either in the bin or the furnace, leaving little of my life and contribution. I will be just a name on such as Civil Records ( birth, marriage, death ), censuses an electoral rolls. Much like most of us. There will be little to mention my skirts. My "accomplishments" will be forgotten in a generation. Even any good I have done will be largely unrecorded. Depressing, isn't it? That doesn't worry me. But whatever I can do I do. I have nothing really to lose and no-one can blackmail me for anything I have done. So I wear my skirts ( and the occasional dress ) with something approaching pride, having only my wife's resistance to act as a drag ( ? ) on my activities.

In that respect my situation is far removed from yours. Our hearts are in the right place we just react differently to our different circumstances.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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