I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Big and Bashful
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I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Big and Bashful »

A really good details analysis of why skirts aren't more popular. I did struggle a bit with the speed and accent but I am not really awake yet!

She raises the influence from the King James bible, I hadn't heard about that one before, that there translation has a lot to answer for!

https://youtu.be/8Hzdo3vQ0a4
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by STEVIE »

Hi B&B
Wow, that took some listening to for sure. Certainly a good article and thanks for sharing.
I was aware of the passage but eventually learned to pay it no mind and go my own way.
However, with a strictly Presbyterian childhood it certainly had an influence.
It shaped the attitude to how I felt about wanting to wear skirts and generated a real fear of "damnation".
More so, at some level I understood how it affected those around me who may have actually been a tad wiser.
I cannot recall ever being directly forbidden from wearing skirts but all the same I knew it was not allowed, it was a "sin".
I had no one to ask as I knew the answer in advance so, yeah thanks to King Jimmy, I had to wait a long time to find my own way.
I am also damnably sure that I am not alone.
On a side note dressing as a female in public was considered a breach of the peace in Scotland and it could very well have some roots in that passage too.
The problem is that there are still some folks out there who would still literally agree with it.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Sinned »

Sorry, I lasted all of two minutes of that clip. The verbal and graphics were just too fast for me. I was having to work hard to keep up with what she was saying - far too hard. Easier to give up. The graphics were there and gone before I could see what was being displayed. No, I gave up. What message was being put across may have been worthy but it lacked the encouragement to persevere.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Jim »

Listen at about .7 x speed. The part about the KJV Bible starts at about 5:04 and goes for about 45 seconds.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by crfriend »

Reading the thesis would have taken less time and effort than listening to it.

In any event, I do note that she used a more literal translation of the original work of Duteronomy 22:5 than the King James' translation, which was good. Unfortunately, altogether too many folks -- including zealots -- use the KJV translation instead of actually looking for the proper more nuanced translation.

There's also the issue that that passage is Old Testament, and therefore obsolete doctrine in the age of the New Testament. Worse, the way it's treated is based on a flawed translation into English from the original. We need to move beyond that argument once and for all.

Ultimately, though, we wind up with the self-reinforcing notion of "Guys don't wear skirts because guys don't wear skirts." How western society can dig itself out of that hole is beyond me.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Big and Bashful »

Sinned wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:36 am
Sorry, I lasted all of two minutes of that clip. The verbal and graphics were just too fast for me. I was having to work hard to keep up with what she was saying - far too hard. Easier to give up. The graphics were there and gone before I could see what was being displayed. No, I gave up. What message was being put across may have been worthy but it lacked the encouragement to persevere.
You can slow things down in Youtube to make it easier to follow,
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Big and Bashful »

crfriend wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:33 pm
Reading the thesis would have taken less time and effort than listening to it.

In any event, I do note that she used a more literal translation of the original work of Duteronomy 22:5 than the King James' translation, which was good. Unfortunately, altogether too many folks -- including zealots -- use the KJV translation instead of actually looking for the proper more nuanced translation.

There's also the issue that that passage is Old Testament, and therefore obsolete doctrine in the age of the New Testament. Worse, the way it's treated is based on a flawed translation into English from the original. We need to move beyond that argument once and for all.

Ultimately, though, we wind up with the self-reinforcing notion of "Guys don't wear skirts because guys don't wear skirts." How western society can dig itself out of that hole is beyond me.
Yep, that is exactly what she said, the bastardised KJV translation of the bible has a lot to answer for, hell, the bible has a lot to answer for! I could go further but would end up upsetting those that believe in the God thing or believe in Pope.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Coder »

That passage haunted me all my life until the past year or so until I really started researching it. At this point it’s lost it’s “bite”. While it is easy for non-believers to dismiss bible passages, those of us who do believe try to live by the principals therein. And just because it is the Old Testament doesn’t mean that it is no longer valid/practiced - there is some nuance (specifically for catholics, though other denominations may also have their interpretations) to old law and if it still applies today.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:37 pm
While it is easy for non-believers to dismiss bible passages, those of us who do believe try to live by the principals therein.
It is not my intent, and never has been, to rubbish what somebody else believes in -- that's their innate right as an individual -- where I take umbrage is when others attempt to compel others to behave according to their dogma.

Of note is that the more recent interpretation of Deuteronomy 22;5 is much closer to what the general reasoning would have been from a societal perspective at the time, and that it centres on deception not fashion or style choices. It is the act of deceiving -- lying -- that's being called out as an abomination, not what one adorns him- or her- self with for clothing.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:38 pm
Coder wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:37 pm
While it is easy for non-believers to dismiss bible passages, those of us who do believe try to live by the principals therein.
It is not my intent, and never has been, to rubbish what somebody else believes in -- that's their innate right as an individual -- where I take umbrage is when others attempt to compel others to behave according to their dogma.

Of note is that the more recent interpretation of Deuteronomy 22;5 is much closer to what the general reasoning would have been from a societal perspective at the time, and that it centres on deception not fashion or style choices. It is the act of deceiving -- lying -- that's being called out as an abomination, not what one adorns him- or her- self with for clothing.
Sorry if my comment seemed a bit flip! It's hard to tell people's intentions via writing-only - and I have a few friends who are militant atheists so I tend to assume anyone who doesn't "believe" thinks I'm nuts for mine. I didn't mean it as a slam - more so a statement of fact.

I'll try to rephrase, but this may not capture what I was trying to say but I think it is closer: I think it is easy for people who don't believe in something to outright dismiss the the beliefs we have. But that doesn't change how we feel about those things - that is these beliefs have meaning to us, and it's something we have to work through on our own when we challenge them or try to think critically about them. Therefore, that bible passage will have no effect on your state of mind, but it will effect us, and it's something we need to work through.


And yeah - I totally agree with you on pushing beliefs on other people.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:03 pm
Sorry if my comment seemed a bit flip!
No worries, sir! None whatsoever.

Belief is a strange concept, and open to more interpretations than one would normally think possible. When it comes to religious dogma, the matter is further complicated by translations from ancient languages into modern ones. Personally, I don't know old Hebrew, nor do I know Aramaic (I do know somebody, however, that does, and she's a published Biblical scholar). That said, I do know that "cherry-picking" snippets of text from scripture -- especially translated scripture -- is dangerous at best, and can be seriously manipulated at worst.

Taken in context Deuteronomy 22:5 should be viewed as damning deception -- lying -- rather than style, fashion, or simple adornment. Bluntly put, at the time and in the locale where the Scripture was supposedly written, men's and women's clothing was substantially similar, especially for the lower classes (which amounted to 99%+ of the population). It's also been entirely invalidated in modern time by the wholesale adoption of trousers by women to, largely, the exclusion of skirts or dresses.
And yeah - I totally agree with you on pushing beliefs on other people.
Live and let live.
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by KiltedintheValley »

I grew up in an extremely fundamentalist Baptist church. The passage from Deuteronomy was used as a tool (weapon) to force females into skirts during a time when pants for women was exploding in popularity. Until the time I permanently left that church in 1996, a woman had to have a skirt or dress on to even enter the sanctuary!

Fast forward to now...I am still a believer in Jesus. (I will defend to the death any one else's beliefs, even if they contradict mine.) I am travelling a far different path from the fundamentalism I was raised in. I have had to do much research on the "truth's" I was taught as a kid. As I have studied and researched, my faith has grown deeper and my freedom has grown larger. Jesus taught much about grace, forgiveness, and love. I don't remember him telling anyone how to dress :D
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by moonshadow »

The biblical passage should only matter if one is trying to gain entry in a church where those type of things [rigid enforcement of gender roles] matter.

Outside of the walls of certain churches we have

1) Freedom from religion

2) No active laws against crossdressing

3) A mostly tolerant public

Sorry fellas... the only thing stopping a man from wearing a skirt is his own ego/fear. It's not society, it's not the church... we've got all the tools we need.... it's just us [men].
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by STEVIE »

moonshadow wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:30 am
Sorry fellas... the only thing stopping a man from wearing a skirt is his own ego/fear. It's not society, it's not the church... we've got all the tools we need.... it's just us [men].
Hi Moon
See my comments earlier, I only wish that I could have understood that when I was ten years old.
It would have saved me a damn near half century of misery.
I won't attribute everything to that passage but it played a hell of a big part.
The influence is so insidious that a lot of the nay sayers will tell you that a guy wearing a skirt is sinful without any knowledge of it whatsoever. The original or the translation would be of no consequence.
Here is an ironic thought, perhaps the Skirt Cafe actually exists as a partial consequence of it too. Poetic justice?
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Re: I don't remember this one being pointed out before

Post by rivegauche »

Two things come to mind over this one.

There is more to it in my case than just doing it. I agree that the reaction in the street to a man wearing a skirt is almost zero. The reason I still don't do it routinely in public (at work, socialising with friends) is that I have achieved something with my life and it is this I want to be remembered for, not as the guy in the skirt. Not fear - priorities. I wear a skirt as a man in public only far from home.

The second is that I also cross dress, presenting in public as a woman (usually far from home but there is that advantage here of disguise). I am not at all religious but the deception side of this bothers me. I have justified it to myself on the grounds that no one is disadvantaged in any way by my behaviour and most of the people I interact with (one woman friend and many shop staff) know I am male so there is no deception anyway. These women love my outfits and I enjoy them too - no harm done to anyone and my endorphins get a nice boost.

One of the advantages of Deuteronomy is that if you live in a religious community as I have the women tend to wear skirts and dresses a lot and look great. I didn't see my mother in trousers until I was in my twenties and she was not religious either. A man who appeared in a skirt in my youth would have been ridiculed (though it was common as fancy dress) but it is interesting that men and women who were obviously gay were not only tolerated but completely accepted - they were judged for the people they were not for their sexuality.

I have had discussions about this with a friend who is a Presbyterian minister, but without revealing my own clothing preference). He refuses to budge on what he sees as scripture. There are Presbyterian churches who go further - some do not allow women any role in the Ministry or as elders. No doubt this is based on scripture too. As others have said, what other people believe does not bother me - it is when they start to impose their beliefs on others I get critical. You could say that women who belong to these churches have signed up for these restrictions on their lives, but they haven't. They tend to be born into these churches and their social lives are built around their churches, and unless they leave their home area they are stuck, so many do leave their home area. I regard this as less religious choice and more religious oppression and that makes it wrong.
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