Not good for our cause

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
STEVIE
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Not good for our cause

Post by STEVIE »

Saw this and do not like the association either.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55326451
Good reaction from the retailer.
Purists would say that is not kilts but really skirts.
Damn sure the boys would be proud of that.
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crfriend
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by crfriend »

I was encouraged by the reaction of the retailer, but that's going to put a dent in his bottom line. And the association is entirely unwelcome, but is not going to change my sense of style one lick -- because my doing that would hand them a victory.

It also shows one of the reasons why we should attempt to come across as intelligent civilised individuals rather than gutter-punks and neo-nazi thugs.

They are entitled to their opinions, but their operational strategy puts them squarely in violation of quite a few laws, and with any luck, now that their champion is on his way out they'll slide back into oblivion -- or be picked up and charged for their misdeeds.
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r.m.anderson
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by r.m.anderson »

Somehow when I read and hear about kilts (skirts) and the LGBT - I visualize the RAINBOW spectrum in colors.
In seeing these Proud Boys wearing those yellow black pattern simulated kilts this just does not set right !

Oh there is nothing "Proud" about their agenda - I hope that now that the election has moved one step closer to consummate
that these folks crawl back into their Neanderthal hole unless they plan on contributing something worthwhile to restore
the USA to ACTUAL greatness and not fanatical braggadocio !
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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moonshadow
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by moonshadow »

This marks the second time I've seen an image of the "proud boys" strutting around in a kilt.

Yeah, I suppose it sucks that they sully the image of the kilt, but on the other hand, it'd a sign that male skirt practically have full acceptance. It wasn't long ago, a right wing-white wing nut wouldn't be caught dead in one of those.

I don't think it will hurt Mr. Greenbrier's bottom line much....

Besides, even Nazi's have to wear clothes.... I mean they can't just strut around naked, chanting their "white power".... I mean, if they were to [run around naked], I think we'd likely find out why they're so insecure! :wink: :twisted:
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Stu »

I was aware of the existence of this group, but I wasn't too sure of what they stood for or their behaviour - so I looked online, starting with their own website. The core values they profess don't seem to be especially extremist: https://proudboysusa.com/tenets/

It does appear, from what I have read, that they have attracted some pretty unsavoury types among their ranks who could fairly be regarded as extremists and, in some cases, positively terroristic. If they tolerate such people in their ranks, or become apologists for violence, harassment or hate, then of course decent people will avoid them. That doesn't mean their core values are wrong or that everyone who has ever associated with them is beyond the pale. Sadly, this group seems to be a counter-movement from left-wing or social justice extreme movements that employ similar tactics like Antifa and the more extreme wing of BLM. What we are seeing is a polarisation of society with groups who feel unrepresented and ignored by the supposed centre gravitating towards the peripheries and that's sad. A bit more tolerance of dissenting and unfashionable political views would likely reduce the attraction of such factions.

I don't think this group wearing yellow kilts would put me off doing the same any more than Stalin's love of chocolate cream would make me avoid ordering that as a dessert in a restaurant.
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by crfriend »

Stu wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm
I don't think this group wearing yellow kilts would put me off doing the same any more than Stalin's love of chocolate cream would make me avoid ordering that as a dessert in a restaurant.
The problem here is that if the image gets ingrained into the public then wearing something similar might be regarded as dressing in "their" uniform which could get uncomfortable in certain situations. And recall that the US is getting more violent with time, not less.
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moonshadow
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:29 pm
Stu wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:11 pm
I don't think this group wearing yellow kilts would put me off doing the same any more than Stalin's love of chocolate cream would make me avoid ordering that as a dessert in a restaurant.
The problem here is that if the image gets ingrained into the public then wearing something similar might be regarded as dressing in "their" uniform which could get uncomfortable in certain situations. And recall that the US is getting more violent with time, not less.
That's true, and one reason I'm reluctant to wear my favorite Wiccan robe out and about as it may be confused for a klansman robe, however kilts are much more widespread than robes, and I don't think it will make much of a difference, no more than wearing pants would sully the reputation of trouser wearers...

Edit: personally... I'd like to see them don a pretty dress, and maybe a petti! :lol:
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r.m.anderson
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by r.m.anderson »

YELLOW - something about their true colors ?
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Rokje
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Rokje »

My wife and I will avoid visiting the USA when planning a holiday in 2021 or 2022. I'm transgender and I don't like to meet those scary groups in public.
Be proud to wear a skirt or dress, they are just clothes. Yes , they are for men too
I'm Marica, a 56 year old girl.

8)
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I was encouraged by the reaction of the retailer, but that's going to put a dent in his bottom line.


Carl, may I suggest that you occasionally consider that the glass may actually be half full?

Consider, a few years ago the SW Washington council (or whatever it is) of the Camp Fire Kids (?) [formerly Girls] was offered a 6-figure donation to establish a program that would be exclusively for "White girls." They almost instantaneously decided that they couldn't accept it and returned it to the would-be donor. Somehow, the local media got wind of the incident, ran short pieces on it and within 24 hours they received 4 times the bigot's offering in unsolicited donations!
The core values they (Proud Boys) profess don't seem to be especially extremist


Stu, for a linguistics professor, you sure don't seem to be very adept at reading between the lines.

They're neo-Nazi thugs. Which means they're bigots.

I feel I'm on solid ground here because I've read and seen the news accounts of their "visits" to Portland OR. During one of their recent appearances, the Antifa crowd didn't take the Proud Boys' attempts to bait them into violence and instead wore costumes and displayed signs mocking the Boises' "values." When they saw they weren't gaining any traction in the City of Roses, they disbanded and tried to find their cars to go back to wherever it was they came from.

As best as anyone could tell, none of them lived in Portland. Like every major city, convenient downtown parking is hard to find. In addition, as I remember it, they had a march along with their rally so disorientation was to be expected.

Then an interesting thing happened, normally friendly, helpful Portlanders either ignored their requests for directions or somehow were characteristically, extremely confused themselves as to which direction these visitors would need to go to locate their cars. I mean, the locals who attempted to provide directions were quite certain as to the way these folks would need to go, but somehow it was always the wrong direction! Things that make you wonder ...
Oh there is nothing "Proud" about their agenda - I hope that now that the election has moved one step closer to consummate
that these folks crawl back into their Neanderthal hole unless they plan on contributing something worthwhile to restore
the USA to ACTUAL greatness and not fanatical braggadocio !


Thank you for that RM!

As a famous, half-American PM of yours once said, "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing! ... But only after they have tried everything else."

It seems to me that the international consensus is that we Americans HAVE tried everything else over the last 4 years so, we're now due for getting it right!
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Stu »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:35 am


Stu, for a linguistics professor, you sure don't seem to be very adept at reading between the lines.

They're neo-Nazi thugs. Which means they're bigots.

I feel I'm on solid ground here because I've read and seen the news accounts of their "visits" to Portland OR. During one of their recent appearances, the Antifa crowd didn't take the Proud Boys' attempts to bait them into violence and instead wore costumes and displayed signs mocking the Boises' "values." When they saw they weren't gaining any traction in the City of Roses, they disbanded and tried to find their cars to go back to wherever it was they came from.
Like I said, I live in another country and I don't know much about them, but are you claiming that all of them are neo-Nazi thugs? That may be true, but my experience with regard to activist groups has taught me that they often attract some people who simply feel alienated and disenfranchised from the prevailing hegemony and see such groups as they only way they can fight back. Very very few people are actual neo-Nazis in my experience. Thankfully.
I would say the same about Antifa, by the way. They certainly have a thuggish element of people whose aim is the destruction of western democracy and values, but I have no doubt they have more moderate people among their ranks.

The way to defeat extremism is to allow all voices to be heard - in other words, maintain and promote free speech for everyone, including those with whom we may disagree passionately.
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by moonshadow »

Rokje wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:31 am
My wife and I will avoid visiting the USA when planning a holiday in 2021 or 2022. I'm transgender and I don't like to meet those scary groups in public.
Now let's stop that.

There is nothing statistically to fear in the U.S.

Are things a little more dangerous for a trans person as opposed to any other group? Perhaps, but the risk is still small. For every one trans-person who has a physical confrontation here, there must be tens of thousands who don't.

The biggest threat to trans-people is financial, by ways of employment discrimination, an issue you won't face as you'd be a visitor.

I occasionally see trans women out and about in places like Kingsport TN, and Johnson City TN.

My advice, if you change you mind, is to use common sense. Not to be insensitive, but you must be honest with yourself as to whether you "pass" or not. I know many Trans people reading this are probably getting offended, but your safety is more important in certain situations.

If you're getting "sir'ed" often enough, then yes, you stand a chance of being assaulted for entering a women's restroom, so in that case, just use the men's. Some states mandate this anyway.

States shaded blue on our map likely have transgender protections codified in law. Red states probably don't. ASSAULT IS ILLEGAL IN ALL STATES... YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE YOUR LIFE IN PEACE FROM CALIFORNIA TO MAINE, ALASKA TO TEXAS.

AND our constitution applies to visitors too.

In any case, take time to familiarize yourself with the local (state) laws of any U.S. state your are planning on visiting.

Read the book: Real Queer America by Samantha Allen, who writes about her experience as a trans-woman living in the south... there are challenges, but it's not as bad as you'd think.

I picked this up at the Kingsport TN 2018 PRIDE celebration. It's a good read.

And don't forget, you have friends here!

20201219_113216_resize_95_compress74.jpg
I've had this out since early December (it replaced my other PRIDE flag that was fading, having been out over a year now)...

... nobody has harassed us yet... no scraping eggs of the house, no cleaning toilet paper out of the trees, no busted windows... we did have one homophobic neighbor move away... but is that really a bad thing :wink:
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Dust
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Dust »

I'm staunchly in the camp of this is actually a good sign.

Not only is this a sign that kilts/skirts are gaining wider acceptance, but the more diverse views that get associated with men in skirts, the less it will be associated with any one viewpoint, organization, or movement. And that is a good thing as well.
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by Dust »

Yes, Moon is right. The USA is still as safe as ever, unless you place yourself near the violent protests. Nearly all are planned in advance (though sometimes only by a few days), so just be mindful and stay away from them. That goes for everyone.

Targeted violence against various identity groups is so rare that it makes the news, making it seem more common than it is. Really, you just need to stay out of the bad parts of the cities, and you should be fine. Every city has somewhere you shouldn't go, and not just in the US.

But until the shutdowns are lifted, I wouldn't bother coming, as there is little to do in many places.
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moonshadow
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Re: Not good for our cause

Post by moonshadow »

I also might suggest visiting transgender web forums with a high number of American members. They can give you pointers on appropriate behaviors and what to expect in different parts of the country.

Basically just don't be obnoxious, let the little things slide (e.g., if someone says something provocative, be the bigger person and just walk away, don't engage them), like Dust mentioned, just follow your gut instinct, if a place looks shady, stay out of that area.
Dust wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:54 am
But until the shutdowns are lifted, I wouldn't bother coming, as there is little to do in many places.
Agreed. You don't want to see America while it's all shut down. Come by when things are back to normal and people are in a better mood.

Pro-tip... while in America... praise it [the U.S.] all of the time, to everyone you meet, tell them it's the greatest country in the world, and then say something nice about Jesus...

... and we'll be eating out of your hand! 8)

But seriously though, whatever you do, don't dog it, or complain about it. Nobody likes that, and Americans will gladly tell you where to go.
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