Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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moonshadow
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by moonshadow »

Yeah, it's really just not a big deal at all, especially if you're wearing more "plain" skirts. I very rarely get any reaction whatsoever, and well.... you all know what people are like where I live...
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Moon and Sinned,
There we have our problem in a nutshell, that it "matters" to someone else.
Moon, I'd guess that you could wear the gaudiest, most lurid and prettiest outfit known to man and it still would not matter. The folks you mention would still react in much the same way.
Sinned, Mrs K. has been out and about with me. She has seen the non-reaction of relations, friends and neighbours. That has not changed her attitude to my skirts one little bit. It matters to her and the rest of the world is wrong as far as she is concerned,
One other thing gents, there is no such thing as trailer trash, working class heroes or the ubermensch, There are only people, human beings who eat, defecate. bleed and breathe in much the same ways.
The attitudes and conditions that such labels create matter a damn sight more than the skirt which I will choose to wear when I go out today.
Steve.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by PatJ »

What we wear matters to some.

I have heard so many times that women are treated as inferior to men.
They complain about lower pay for equivalent work, and other injustices
against them. They want equality for womanhood. (And, believe it or not,
I am not opposed to equality!)

But, I do not see equality becoming a reality. When a woman dresses is
pants, or in any way emulates masculine attire, she is viewed no different
if she is wearing "traditional" female fashion. If a man in any way wears
"traditional" female fashion, he is looked down upon by far too many
people - often times - these are people most beloved. It is as if he has
somehow degraded himself by wearing traditionally female fashion.

As such - this implies that females are not equal to men because for a
man to dress as one degrades himself while women dressing as men does not
degrade herself.

There are deep rooted images of what constitutes masculinity and femininity.
Equality will come when these images can be overcome and we learn to
look at a person as a just another person and not as a sexual being.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Stu »

PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
I have heard so many times that women are treated as inferior to men.
I keep hearing that, too - mainly from feminists. So I ask them to explain what rights I enjoy as a male that they are denied. They have no answer.
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
As such - this implies that females are not equal to men because for a man to dress as one degrades himself while women dressing as men does not degrade herself.
I think we need to define our terms here, Pat. Women almost never dress as men - they simply take advantage of the vast range of sartorial options open to them, not to mention other factors of appearance from handbags to jewellery and cosmetics to hairstyles. If a woman were to present herself in a way that was wholly masculine, e.g. a man's suit, shoes, shirt and tie, short haircut - then she would be perceived as either gay or trans. Men don't have anywhere near as many choices as women and attempting to expand such choices even slightly calls into question, in the minds of some, their sexual orientation or gender identity.
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
There are deep rooted images of what constitutes masculinity and femininity. Equality will come when these images can be overcome and we learn to look at a person as a just another person and not as a sexual being
For me, you nearly hit it on the head with the first sentence. It's not so much the essences of masculinity and femininity which need to change, but rather the deep cultural taboos. This is a site where we talk about men wearing skirts. The skirt is just about the simplest garment that has ever existed - a cloth tube or wrap. The notion that wearing anything which hangs below the waist but does not divide the legs, regardless how it is styled, is a grave anathema to any member of the 50% of the population who are male while the other 50% can wear whatever they please is both logically absurd and a grotesque inequality. And this inequity is sustained by a kind of psychological coercion to the extent that even questioning it give rise to suspicions about some's sexual orientation or gender identity.

A local garden centre near where I used to live had all its staff wearing a uniform which alternated with the season. That uniform comprised a pale green and burgundy sweatshirt and dark green denim trousers for both sexes in winter, and a pale green and burgundy polo shirt and dark green denim trousers for both sexes in summer - but I noticed that female staff clearly had the option of a dark green denim skirt instead of the trousers. I have no idea what the company policy was, but the reality was that male staff did not have that option. That is unfair and absurd.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by STEVIE »

Pat and Stu
I did say that much of our problems come from other peoples attitudes.
However, that is not the point that I was trying to convey.
I also don't see much point in getting all steamed up by mixing my choosing to wear skirts with women's rights issues.
The fact is that the Earth will continue on its path in space and time regardless of how much shock and awe my fashion choices engender in other folks.
I am also pretty sure that my choice of a dress has never proved fatal to another human.
If I have caused harm, it is likely to have been to the male clothing industry and they have only themselves to blame for not providing the choices.
I hope that makes "not important" as I see it more clear.
That said it should be up to anyone to decide for themselves how they set their own life priorities but that is their concern not mine.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Faldaguy »

by Stu » Thu Nov 26, 2020
but I noticed that female staff clearly had the option of a dark green denim skirt instead of the trousers. I have no idea what the company policy was, but the reality was that male staff did not have that option. That is unfair and absurd.

Did not have the option; or did not choose to exercise it? Sometimes we only have ourselves to blame!
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by STEVIE »

Stu and Faldaguy,
I agree with the absurdity in that particular case and there are plenty like it, perhaps worse.
However, the employer was acting quite legitimately within UK/European law if the option was not offered to their male employees.
The Law can indeed be an ass at times.
In my own case, I actually established a precedent that a male DWP employee is entitled to wear a skirt in the office.
That was prior to the current raft of "gender" related cases that we have seen recently but it was never tested in tribunal so it only applies in the Ivory Towers and Concrete Abominations so beloved of the civil service.
Final question Stu, did you ever consider taking the Garden Centre owners to task for it?
Steve.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Stu »

Stevie and Faldaguy

I wasn't actually blaming the Garden Centre for the situation. Wherever they get their uniforms would almost certainly specify the skirt was designed and sized for females - it simply wouldn't occur to them to offer it to males because the sartorial taboo of males and skirts is still very powerful in our culture. Were the Garden Centre to be asked about this, they would no doubt say that this isn't an issue because no male staff members have asked to wear the skirts, so they are not discriminating.

The issue relates to the culture rather than specific employers, and to the clothing industry which won't advance the possibilities for men but rather prefer to stay on the safe ground of males wearing only trousers.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Skaterboy »

Harry Styles as my cultural hero, eh! 2020 just keeps getting stranger. Some random reflections on that article:

First of all, the outfits are all way OTT, but that's a Vogue thing right? Have you ever seen any Vogue looks in your local high street? By the time it makes it to Primark it will be toned down a lot.

I was a bit disapointed by the reference to Harry being in touch with his feminine side. Wearing a skirt isn't necessarily about channeling your inner girl. Is a guy donning a kilt expressing femininity? Looks to me more like an outbreak of testosterone fuelled machismo.

Good to be having a public debate though. I was encouraged by this article in Harvard Business Review (of all places) - https://hbr.org/2020/11/transgender-gen ... obal-en-GB
This reminded me of growing up in the 1970s. In 1975 my dad was telling me I needed a haircut. Two years later his own hair was over his collar (course mine was short again by then, but I always was on the leading edge)

It feels like normalisation could be just around the corner - as long as we can keep the 'Rising Reactionary Right' at bay.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by STEVIE »

I was a bit disappointed by the reference to Harry being in touch with his feminine side. Wearing a skirt isn't necessarily about channelling your inner girl. Is a guy donning a kilt expressing femininity? Looks to me more like an outbreak of testosterone fuelled machismo.
SkaterBoy,
You choosing to wear a skirt has nothing to do with anything except how you are opting to clothe your body.
There was an old thread resurrected which I just had a wee read of. The title was "Why do Mens Kilts have to look so masculine"?
I left a comment to the effect that I would be damn careful where I asked that question. You are actually right that the wearing of a Kilt is often seen as overtly masculine display. The Gods forbid any suggestion that the thing is a skirt by any other name.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Grok »

A number of cultures have had open ended garments intended as mens wear. Unfortunately, Western Civilization has demanded a Trousers Tyranny for men-the kilt being almost the only exception.

If men have been trapped in trousers, it follows that skirts would be associated entirely with feminimity.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

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... even though the modern kilt bears little resemblance to its historical version and was a creation of the Victorian era...
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Dust »

PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
What we wear matters to some.
Typically, this is only spouses, employers, and relatively few others. Unfortunately, most men spend most of their lives under the dictates of employers and overbearing wives. If more men worked for themselves and aserted themselves with their wives, this wouldn't be near the issue it is...
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
I have heard so many times that women are treated as inferior to men.
They are not. They are treated differently for sure, but mostly this difference is getting treated BETTER.
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
They complain about lower pay for equivalent work, and other injustices against them.
This has been debunked so thoroughly that I'm always shocked that some people still repeat it. Women get paid the same or slightly better when you control for what job they are performing, education, hours worked, experience, and do on.
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
They want equality for womanhood. (And, believe it or not, I am not opposed to equality!)
I'm not opposed to equality, either, but that was never the goal. Feminism is a supremacy movement, full stop. They want equality only when it is to their benefit. They want what they see as the privileges or advantages of being a man, with none of the responsibilities or disadvantages.

Women have their own set of privileges and advantages, but few will acknowledge this, and fewer still will include these in discussions of "equality".
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
But, I do not see equality becoming a reality. When a woman dresses is pants, or in any way emulates masculine attire, she is viewed no different
if she is wearing "traditional" female fashion. If a man in any way wears "traditional" female fashion, he is looked down upon by far too many people - often times - these are people most beloved. It is as if he has somehow degraded himself by wearing traditionally female fashion. As such - this implies that females are not equal to men because for a man to dress as one degrades himself while women dressing as men does not degrade herself.
People try to claim it as degrading, because they know it's jarring and doesn't make sense to them, but don't know why. But I think that's actually the reverse of how it is seen, subconsciously. People don't see women as lesser than men, if anything they are on a pedestal, above men. Men wearing something "feminine" is seen as getting uppity, grabbing something you aren't allowed to have because you are just a man.

Men are expected to be practical. We are valued for our utility: our ability to hold a job, provide financially, or sacrifice ourselves for others. Women are treated as valuable simply for being women, as well as for their looks. Adorning women in pretty things is seen as fitting their womanhood. A man who can't (or won't) work is seen as worse than useless. A woman who does work is seen as an extra-valuable person. All menswear is "work-wear," while the feminine stuff is seen as impractical and purely for show. The decorative show-horse stuff doesn't go on a mule or an ox. But even a farm horse can wear it occasionally and not look out of place.
PatJ wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
There are deep rooted images of what constitutes masculinity and femininity. Equality will come when these images can be overcome and we learn to look at a person as a just another person and not as a sexual being.
Yes, the ideas of what constitutes masculine and feminine are deep rooted. But those ideas are partly cultural, and can and should be expanded. The feminine had been expanded quite a bit, and rather intentionally so. Masculinity has fallen behind, and an inbalance in favor of women had resulted. Anger (the natural response to a perceived injustice) and despair on the part of males has resulted, leading to everything from the trope of the "angry young man," to the massive number of male suicides (about 3-4 times the female number).

But the differences between men and women will always be first and foremost sexual, as that is the most fundamental thing that defines men and women as different. Men and women will always treat each other differently because of this. And that's okay. We just need to restore balance to how the two sexes are treated in society.

Balance means both giving men some "female" privileges (like clothing options), and asking women to help shoulder the responsibilities that come with the "male" privileges they have already claimed.


*Edited to eliminate a metaphor that would likely derail the thread and want needed.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by Coder »

Thought I'd share - was on twitter for something unrelated and decided to search #harrystyles to see what people were saying. Ran across this amusing thread. Please ignore the politics of it - but to give everyone context - someone who's outspoken on the political right (please please don't delve into politics on this one, I do not want to poison this thread) had replied to Harry's Vogue article with a "bring back manly men" tweet, tweeting I think a photo of Harry in a war movie. That's all one needs to know - but I loved this response:

Tweets:

https://twitter.com/sammyoliveira04/sta ... 1149621252
https://twitter.com/sammyoliveira04/sta ... 9411490823

Pics from those tweets:

Image
Image

This isn't so much to *knock* styles of old, but it is a perfect example of how styles have radically changed in just a few hundred years, and how our concept of "manly" has changed.
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Re: Harry Styles wearing skirts and dresses

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:07 pm
This isn't so much to *knock* styles of old, but it is a perfect example of how styles have radically changed in just a few hundred years, and how our concept of "manly" has changed.
Folks forget precisely how modern "male drab" is.
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