Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

Post by Jim2 »

Stu, you ask, "Can anyone explain to me how the uniform at this school is either sexist or sexualises students? It just looks like a pretty standard school uniform to me." From the follow-up article, it says:
The suppression of women’s clothing perpetuates the act of victim-blaming, reaffirming the mentality that young girls need to watch how they dress in order to protect themselves from the male gaze. Additionally, by telling young girls their bodies are “distractions,” it solidifies the sexist misconception that a female body is for the pleasure of men.
That's how. The excuse used to perpetuate the "standard school uniform" as you call it, is to claim that it is the girls' fault that boys may be distracted by their clothing, blaming them for the bad behavior it may lead boys to do. That's sexist.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:36 pm
Stu, if you want to talk about obsessive dedication to a purpose, you need not go any further than Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was fiercely and unstintingly dedicated to obtaining equal rights for every American.
And she reached the very top of her profession. So how exactly as she oppressed? I don't see the relevance, sorry.
Jim2 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:47 pm
The suppression of women’s clothing perpetuates the act of victim-blaming, reaffirming the mentality that young girls need to watch how they dress in order to protect themselves from the male gaze.
The "male gaze"? So boys of a certain age look at girls? And no doubt girls look at boys. That's normal. It is part of what initiates human reproduction. The whole concept of "the male gaze" is nonsense invented by man-hating feminists as a device to argue their victimhood and to assert that they are an oppressed class. Why do people buy into this nonsense?
Additionally, by telling young girls their bodies are “distractions,” it solidifies the sexist misconception that a female body is for the pleasure of men.
Nobody is telling young girls any such thing. If you claim they are, then please provide evidence. Again, this is manufactured nonsense. Of course clothing and other aspects of one's appearance can be sexually provocative. Clothes are signifiers: they convey signals, which is why we choose our attire with care and according to context. School is a place of study. If we are to have mixed-sex schools, then the boys are going to be attracted to the girls. Girls instinctively know that adolescent boys are firing on all their new hormones and in some cases they exploit this by modifying their appearance to emulate young adult, sexually mature women. That's one reason we insist on the wearing of uniforms consisting of items that minimise this. And before you try to claim that boys must learn to control themselves, nobody is suggesting otherwise - but the sight of any attractive female dressed in clothing which implies sexual maturity and availability is bound to attract attention of heterosexual males. So both sexes should be subject to clear boundaries, both in terms of their appearance and in terms of their behaviour. That is not unreasonable for a classroom situation.
That's how. The excuse used to perpetuate the "standard school uniform" as you call it, is to claim that it is the girls' fault that boys may be distracted by their clothing, blaming them for the bad behavior it may lead boys to do. That's sexist.
Of course boys would be distracted by females wearing sexually provocative clothing. That is not "sexist" - it is biology! Just as I wouldn't allow young, buff boys to walk around a school shirtless, I would not allow girls to wear skirts which are too close to their underwear or tops which reveal their breasts. What they choose to wear at the beach or in a nightclub is, of course, a different matter.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:36 am
Stu, if you want to talk about obsessive dedication to a purpose, you need not go any further than Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was fiercely and unstintingly dedicated to obtaining equal rights for every American.
And she reached the very top of her profession. So how exactly as she oppressed? I don't see the relevance, sorry.


The relevance, Stu, is that you claimed women lack the persistence required of leaders when common experience shows that such an assertion is sexist BS.

Likewise, your responses to Jim's counter-arguments strike me as willful ignorance. Uniforms and prescriptive dress codes are no way to teach young people the judgement and maturity they will need as adults. Both young men and young women need to be taught to respect others, no matter what their sex or social class, and to dress in a self-respecting and appropriate-for-the-occasion manner. And yes, those are subjective standards, but so are the standards high school students will face in the world they will entering in a few short years as adults.

They also require informed, up-to-date judgement on the part of the school teachers and administrators, because standards, like fashion in general is in a rapidly moving state of flux.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:38 pm
The relevance, Stu, is that you claimed women lack the persistence required of leaders when common experience shows that such an assertion is sexist BS.
Another straw man from you! I said no such thing. There are traits that are more common in males than females and vice-versa. These include, when it comes to men, obsessive dedication to a single interest or specialism. That's probably why there has never been a female Mozart or Michelangelo or Da Vinci or Einstein. Females are more likely to have a wider range of generalised aptitudes. The bell curves of males and females in terms of intelligence, interests and talents overlap considerably, but they are far from being totally correspondent.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tMf89VnFjEE/R ... SexIQa.jpg

We can even see this manifest in emotional and developmental disorders, with males more likely to have some degree of autism while females are more likely to suffer from neuroticism.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/autis ... explained/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9200973/

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:38 pm
Likewise, your responses to Jim's counter-arguments strike me as willful ignorance. Uniforms and prescriptive dress codes are no way to teach young people the judgement and maturity they will need as adults.
I didn't claim they were intended to teach judgment and maturity - I am doubtful that these attributes can be taught at all. If you are going to dispute my arguments, please address what I am actually saying instead of mischaracterising them.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:38 pm
Both young men and young women need to be taught to respect others, no matter what their sex or social class, and to dress in a self-respecting and appropriate-for-the-occasion manner. And yes, those are subjective standards, but so are the standards high school students will face in the world they will entering in a few short years as adults. They also require informed, up-to-date judgement on the part of the school teachers and administrators, because standards, like fashion in general is in a rapidly moving state of flux.
I didn't suggest otherwise.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

That's probably why there has never been a female Mozart or Michelangelo or Da Vinci or Einstein.


More disproven, out-of-date, sexist BS. Have you ever heard of Madame Curie? Missed the notices about the recent books on forgotten women of science and the arts? We don't know of these women because their male contemporaries did their damnedest to suppress their accomplishments. And they're not the exceptions that prove the rule. Did you ever hear of Grace Hopper, one of the founders of modern computing? Contemporary women scientists are making as many breakthroughs as their male counterparts. Recently a major astronomical breakthrough was achieved by an international team organized and lead by a young woman. God knows what she'll come up with when she gets around to finishing her undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan.

As far as Einstein goes, there's been a strong case made that perhaps Albert's greatest achievements were actually the result of his first wife's work and thinking. Part of the proof being he didn't produce much of note after he divorced her!

Maybe you should do yourself and the rest of us a favor and move your thinking beyond all of those tired, discredited sexist stereotypes.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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As far as Einstein goes, there's been a strong case made that perhaps Albert's greatest achievements were actually the result of his first wife's work and thinking.
I'm curious to know more about this. Do you know where I can read more about this?

Thanks for your reply to Stu.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

Post by Stu »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:31 am
That's probably why there has never been a female Mozart or Michelangelo or Da Vinci or Einstein.


More disproven, out-of-date, sexist BS.
1. If is "disproven", then maybe you could show evidence. You know - EVIDENCE? Just as I have linked peer-reviewed scientific journals.

2. The truth is never "out-of-date" - it is not subject to fashionable hegemony

3. Calling something "sexist BS" is not a counter-argument. It's just you being emotional (as opposed to linking actual evidence).
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:31 am
Have you ever heard of Madame Curie? etc etc
I didn't say that women hadn't contributed to science - of course they have. Some women have been very talented scientists, artists and so on. In my own field of research, I have the greatest respect for some female scholars. But the hard reality is that they are massively outnumbered by men in the vast majority of specialisms and in terms of the scale of their achievements. Of course you will happily believe the feminist narrative that female success is sidelined and ignored, but that claim really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The very fact that some women have been successful - their success recognised etc - proves that, if they can achieve, then they are indeed recognised - as with Marie Curie. By the way - Marie Curie discovered an element. Remind me, how many elements are there in the Periodic Table? And how many were discovered by women?
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:31 am
As far as Einstein goes, there's been a strong case made that perhaps Albert's greatest achievements were actually the result of his first wife's work and thinking. Part of the proof being he didn't produce much of note after he divorced her!
A "strong case", eh? Mrs Einstein was really the brains behind it all, eh? I am not aware that any reputable historian or physicist has claimed any such thing. As Marić was a physicist and mathematician, then it is certainly possible that there was some collaboration - that would be entirely normal - but it hardly proves that Einstein's main theories were really hers.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:31 am
Part of the proof being he didn't produce much of note after he divorced her!
So what great discoveries did she make after they were divorced?
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:31 am
Maybe you should do yourself and the rest of us a favor and move your thinking beyond all of those tired, discredited sexist stereotypes
Maybe you should do yourself a favour and stop buying into the feminist historical revisionism and indoctrination and instead look more critically at their dogma.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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I didn't say that women hadn't contributed to science - of course they have. Some women have been very talented scientists, artists and so on. In my own field of research, I have the greatest respect for some female scholars. But the hard reality is that they are massively outnumbered by men in the vast majority of specialisms and in terms of the scale of their achievements. Of course you will happily believe the feminist narrative that female success is sidelined and ignored, but that claim really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The very fact that some women have been successful - their success recognised etc - proves that, if they can achieve, then they are indeed recognised - as with Marie Curie. By the way - Marie Curie discovered an element. Remind me, how many elements are there in the Periodic Table? And how many were discovered by women?
The fact that women have been massively outnumbered by men in terms of the scale of their achievements does nothing to prove your point of view. Historically, women were rarely allowed to obtain an education that went beyond the bare minimum of raising children and maintaining a household. There is no easy way to pick apart the influence of natural ability from the influence of social controls over their lives. But you seem to totally ignore the fact that women have through most of history been restrained from making intellectual achievements. In Europe through much of history, they were treated almost as property.

One statistic, though, that might help is the percentage of women who now go on to higher education versus that of men. Here are the facts from an article in the Atlantic on August 8, 2017,
Where men once went to college in proportions far higher than women—58 percent to 42 percent as recently as the 1970s—the ratio has now almost exactly reversed.

This fall, women will comprise more than 56 percent of students on campuses nationwide, according to the U.S. Department of Education. Some 2.2 million fewer men than women will be enrolled in college this year. And the trend shows no sign of abating. By 2026, the department estimates, 57 percent of college students will be women.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

Post by Stu »

Jim2 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:51 pm
Historically, women were rarely allowed to obtain an education that went beyond the bare minimum of raising children and maintaining a household. ... But you seem to totally ignore the fact that women have through most of history been restrained from making intellectual achievements.
You would have to go back quite a few centuries for that to be accurate. Women were painting pictures and composing symphonies as far back as the late 18th century and some examples still exist. So where are the female Rembrandts, Monets, Verdis and Mozarts? Women have worked in science since the middle of the 19th Century and a few have become famous for their contribution, but the major, groundbreaking discoveries have been overwhelmingly made by men. Where are all the great female philosophers? Nobody has ever stopped women in that field.

Your point about higher education is interesting. I teach at a university and I see how academia in many areas is becoming utterly female-dominated at all levels. Male students and male lecturers are becoming a minority in many faculties at a time when all manner of initiatives are still being dreamed up expressly to help women. Women have full equal rights with men and they have enjoyed these now for quite a few years. If anything, the pendulum has swung too far and the disadvantaged group is now males and we need to call a halt to that. Radical feminism has morphed into a cult which cannot be questioned or criticised and we need to take back control from these zealots.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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You would have to go back quite a few centuries for that to be accurate. Women were painting pictures and composing symphonies as far back as the late 18th century and some examples still exist.
The fact that women were accomplishing major things as far back as the 18th century doesn't mean that my point is not accurate about women's conditions in, say, the late 18th century. The conditions I cited were true for most women as late as the early 20th century. Those women made those accomplishments despite the conditions placed on most women. But the conditions were real and contributed to vastly reducing the contributions that the majority of women could make. At any rate, the simple fact that some women made such contributions as you have noted does not in itself prove or even lend any shred of evidence to your claim that you state as "You would have to go back quite a few centuries for that to be accurate."
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Stu, women are proportionately absent in the group of great musicians, scientists and so on because for most of history they were actively and sometimes passionately discouraged from education and entering the employment pool. Even some of the great ones are not well known such as Hedy Lamarr who developed an early version of frequency hopping that are common today in communications. Given the disincentives it's remarkable that so many have succeeded. The statement of Charlotte Whitton, "Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily, this is not difficult."
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Stu wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:46 pm
The bell curves of males and females in terms of intelligence, interests and talents overlap considerably,
The intelligence tests were drawn up by men, using men's ideas of what constitutes 'intelligence'.  It's not all that long ago that intelligence tests 'proved' differences along racial lines, until the cultural bias in the questions was removed.
We can even see this manifest in emotional and developmental disorders, with males more likely to have some degree of autism while females are more likely to suffer from neuroticism.
I am reminded of the situation many years ago when we were taught by a qualified expert that men couldn't suffer from Anorexia Nervosa.  It was only later, when I had to research the subject, that I found out why: the definition of Anorexia was that weight loss had become so severe that it had led to cessation of periods -- men didn't have periods, so by definition they couldn't suffer from Anorexia.  In case you think this is a joke or an isolated example, I can assure you it isn't; the medical and scientific literature is littered with stupidity like this.

A female friend of mine was distinctly autistic, but it had never been diagnosed because, when she was younger, autism in women simply wasn't recognised.  Once I recognised how it manifest itself in women, which was different from men because of the way they were brought up, I saw just as many mildly autistic women amongst my acquaintances as mildly autistic men.

Be very careful when dealing with answers founded in science, they may not be answering the right question.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Sinned wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:36 pm
Stu, women are proportionately absent in the group of great musicians, scientists and so on because for most of history they were actively and sometimes passionately discouraged from education and entering the employment pool. Even some of the great ones are not well known...
In at least one case, Hertha Ayerton, her work was credited to her husband (despite his denials and the obvious differences in their specialisms).  

In the 1970s I was trying to find the original research that was done on electric arcs; there was plenty of information on arc lamp design in books published around the turn of the last century, but no references to the research on which it was based.  About 10 years ago I came across an American reprint of her original research publication and found it contained all the information I had been looking for; if that information had been published in Britain, it had certainly been well hidden.

One feature of her report which really stood out was the credit she gave to her lab assistant for his contributions to her research, I don't know many men researchers who would do that nowadays and it was even less common 130 years ago.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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pelmut wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:57 pm
One feature of her report which really stood out was the credit she gave to her lab assistant for his contributions to her research, I don't know many men researchers who would do that nowadays and it was even less common 130 years ago.
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Re: Article about boys wearing skirts as a protest in Quebec school

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Jim2 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:06 pm
But the conditions were real and contributed to vastly reducing the contributions that the majority of women could make. At any rate, the simple fact that some women made such contributions as you have noted does not in itself prove or even lend any shred of evidence to your claim that you state as "You would have to go back quite a few centuries for that to be accurate."
These paintings and musical compositions still exist to this day, but they are of little interest. That's because, compared to the work of their male counterparts of the same era, they are generally mediocre. But nobody dares to admit that.

Conversely, women novelists have made their mark, albeit to a lesser degree. Jane Austen is such an example and can be compared to such as Dickens (albeit he was a Victorian rather than a Regency writer). This surely proves that women have been able to make their mark if they had the will and the talent.
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