Scottish Hate Crime law

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
skirted84
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Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by skirted84 »

This is mainly for those in Scotland who may be aware of the proposed hate crime laws under discussion. It includes a seemingly innocuous reference to 'transgender identity', and though this forum is never intended to be about trans or crossdressing issues, male skirt wearing does rightly or wrongly have issues in common in the minds of a large number of people.

An influential lobby group forwomenscotland included a detailed objection to this in their submission which is an example of how confusing the language is becoming. Initially formed to oppose changes to the Gender Recognition Act they have found a new outlet now that has been shelved.
Cross-dressing is at best a fashion statement and at worst the public enactment of a male
fetish to wear items of clothing, particularly lingerie, typically worn by women. There should
be no place in law for the protection of either, and particularly not a sexual fetish that is a
primary paraphilia of sex offenders
While male skirt wearing does not strictly come under crossdressing of this definition, so many realistically still see it that way and it seems amiss to have "no place in law for the protection of" for a man wearing clothes customarily considered feminine, whether from verbal or physical harassment, discrimination in workplaces. I think many would support protection for fashion freedom within limits of decency and would be welcomed to have clarity in such laws if passed. This is nothing to do with right to use single sex facilities, again not a debate we need to have here.

The last half sentence particularly is a perception we can very much do away with.
geron
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by geron »

It would be surprising if an attempt to outlaw skirted men were to succeed in the land of the kilt. But the foamingly intemperate language used by this group and the glib assumptions surely eliminate it from serious consideration. What's that about lingerie, for example? Since lingerie isn't normally meant to be seen, what's the point of legislating about it? Looks as if these people simply can't resist taking a swat at a minority.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by pelmut »

skirted84 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:36 pm
This is mainly for those in Scotland who may be aware of the proposed hate crime laws under discussion. It includes a seemingly innocuous reference to 'transgender identity', and though this forum is never intended to be about trans or crossdressing issues, male skirt wearing does rightly or wrongly have issues in common in the minds of a large number of people.

An influential lobby group forwomenscotland included a detailed objection to this in their submission which is an example of how confusing the language is becoming. Initially formed to oppose changes to the Gender Recognition Act they have found a new outlet now that has been shelved.
Cross-dressing is at best a fashion statement and at worst the public enactment of a male
fetish to wear items of clothing, particularly lingerie, typically worn by women. There should
be no place in law for the protection of either, and particularly not a sexual fetish that is a
primary paraphilia of sex offenders
This is one of the groups I warned about in a previous post
If they succeed in forcing transpeople to stay at home because they daren't use a toilet, these hate-peddlers will then turn their attention to something else -- and it could be men in skirts. The reason you are wearing a skirt won't matter any more; mothers will be told it is because you are a child molester, wives will be told it is because ther husbands are becoming women and men in skirts will be banned from public places because men (in trousers) have been known to 'flash' at women.
They have already tricked the English Minister for Women and Equalities into making transphobic statements in contravention of international law and diametrically opposed to the findings of a report by her own committee, don't be surprised if they do the same thing in Scotland.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Dust »

Should dressing a certain way be criminal because you associate it with some other crime? Because of who does it, or what you believe they were thinking while they did it? Of course not. If sex offenders really are "crossdressing" (whatever that means), who cares. Arrest them for those sex offenses. Same would go for attire associated with gang violence. Arrest them for the gang violence, not what they wear.*

If they want to outlaw wearing lingerie in public (they might, I don't know), fine. Outlaw it for both sexes. Not sure how such things could be defined or enforced, but hey, I'm not going there.

Skirt Cafe does an admirable job keeping most of the fetish crap out of here, distinguishing between public fashion and everything else, and distinguishing between men in skirts and trans folk. Unfortunately, it seems to be the exception in that regard.

Such negative associations are out there, and (as the OP pointed out) we can't pretend that's not the case. I think that we should do what we can to combat these associations, starting by setting a good example in what we wear and how we behave. Getting worked up over it does no good, and could be seen as protesting too much and a confirmation in the minds of some. A number of guys here at the Cafe are awesome ambassadors for the idea of men wearing skirts, as men.

As to this point of it happening in the "land of the kilt," I'm honestly not surprised. Scotland has come across my news sources in a negative light for sex discrimination and legislation biased against men in the past. Plus, folks there probably understand better than most the difference between a kilt and a female-marketed skirt.

I will note that even in the snippet shown above of this group's statement (I'd be curious to see the whole thing), they acknowledge that "crossdressing" as they call it, can be a fashion statement, so I think we are getting somewhere.


*Some city in the US actually made wearing your pants hanging down showing your underwear illegal... Stupid law, but apparently enforced, or at least enforceable the way it was written, for both sexes.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Shilo »

When I read Pelmut’s first post in this thread I was so angry at the quote from forwomenscotland that I had to take a break before replying. A group like this that basically accuses skirt wearers of being sex offenders is dangerous indeed. Likewise to use the term paraphilia in this way insinuates that cross dressing itself is some kind of mental disorder. This is akin to those in the fifties and sixties who claimed that homosexuality was an illness that should be cured.
The definition of paraphilia is so broad that it could be applied to anyone who had any sort of sexual fantasy.
How would they feel if someone were to refer to women’s rights campaigners as primarily dungaree wearing dikes. It’s just as insulting and inaccurate. Incidentally that’s not my opinion as one of my wife’s friends suggested I was far more militant than her in that regard.
:roll:
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Stu »

The whole notion of a "hate crime" is an absurdity. Even though hatred is a negative and destructive emotion, people are entitled to hate. They are not entitled to commit crimes, of course, and doing so attracts a punishment under the law. People should be punished for what they actually do and the material harm they cause. The law has no business judging people for holding prejudices, biases or preconceptions. The Scottish hate crime Bill is deeply illiberal and sinister, and it will inevitably be used to suppress free speech.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by pelmut »

Shilo wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:34 pm
When I read Pelmut’s first post in this thread I was so angry at the quote from forwomenscotland that I had to take a break before replying. A group like this that basically accuses skirt wearers of being sex offenders is dangerous indeed.
Actually skirted84 deserves the credit for spotting that, I only followed it up.  Now you can see why transwomen are getting so upset at being accused by the same hate groups of being rapists and voyeurs in womens toilets.
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skirted84
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by skirted84 »

I don't know if I've entirely understood the context or meaning of the quote but the broad idea is the same however you look at it. Its also contradictory as some who oppose the whole gender theory do argue everyone can dress as they like within limits of decency, like we no longer consider women in trousers as "crossdressing" except in some ultra conservative societies and schools. They've also rejected including "gender" to cover both misogyny and misandry, both I think are problems that should be protected.
The whole notion of a "hate crime" is an absurdity. Even though hatred is a negative and destructive emotion, people are entitled to hate. They are not entitled to commit crimes, of course, and doing so attracts a punishment under the law.
I don't entirely agree with that and as a disabled man too it is a familiar issue. It is vital however to draw the line properly on when free speech does become hate to the detriment of whole groups, and crucially who will be the judge without risking arrest and maybe 2 years of court appearances to have a throwaway comment adjudicated on. Thats why the football behaviour act here was repealed and why I do agree
The Scottish hate crime Bill is deeply illiberal and sinister, and it will inevitably be used to suppress free speech.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Stu »

skirted84 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:58 pm

It is vital however to draw the line properly on when free speech does become hate to the detriment of whole groups, and crucially who will be the judge without risking arrest and maybe 2 years of court appearances to have a throwaway comment adjudicated on. Thats why the football behaviour act here was repealed and why I do agree
What "detriment" is caused when someone expresses an opinion?
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by crfriend »

Stu wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:01 pm
What "detriment" is caused when someone expresses an opinion?
Precisely.

The border is reached when there is compulsion of one individual over another based on personal whim or opinion.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Dust »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:42 pm
Stu wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:01 pm
What "detriment" is caused when someone expresses an opinion?
Precisely.

The border is reached when there is compulsion of one individual over another based on personal whim or opinion.
If there is compulsion, it's not speech, it's force. Threats and incitement to violence have never been covered as free speech, even in the US.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by crfriend »

Dust wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:17 am
If there is compulsion, it's not speech, it's force. Threats and incitement to violence have never been covered as free speech, even in the US.
Ideally, correct. Unfortunately, that's not the way it frequently works in practise. Hence, some of the more idiotic laws that have been enacted over the years.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by rivegauche »

I haven't followed the reports on this Bill but all the vibes are fairly negative. Modern Scotland is a very positive and liberal country and I suspect that this is an attempt to protect minorities that they haven't got quite right. If someone abuses you for wearing a skirt it is unpleasant but is it a crime? Should it be? Making such remarks says more about the one making them than the one on the receiving end and though being on the receiving end could be horrible there are degrees of unpleasantness. If it was accompanied by intimidation then I would support prosecution, but for the intimidation, not the remarks. We are not all woosses but maybe woosses deserve protection from even verbal bullies? These are questions - I don't have the answers. If we go out in skirts we almost expect some robust feedback (so we are not woosses), but it doesn't actually happen. But it could. I remain undecided.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:55 am
... I suspect that this is an attempt to protect minorities that they haven't got quite right.
That seems to be the case.  

Until a couple of decades ago the perpretators of violence could use the excuse "He was asking for it because he was a crossdresser/transgender/poofter/black/etc." and very often received a degree of understanding and sympathy from the police and even the judge.  Gradually that list has been whittled down: nowadays there is little understanding or sympathy (at least in the U.K.) for anyone who thinks it is right to verbally or physically attack someone because of their race or skin colour - but it has taken a special strengthening of the law and the creation of the 'racially aggravated' category with more severe penalties to finally get that point across.  That should not have been necessary and was not good law because it created division rather than removing it.  A good law should apply equally to everyone but it was clear that the existing good laws were being enforced selectively, so a bad law was passed to redress the balance.

That principle was then extended to include homosexuality; better education followed when the laws preventing children being properly educated on the subject were removed and nowadays most younger people are quite comfortable with the idea of same-sex couples.  Now transgender people have been included and it looks as though people with different clothing preferences should be covered too; so the overall results are good, even though the means of achieving them is still not right.

With better education and waning influence from ignorant 'religious' hate groups, we might eventually get to a situation where the 'hate crime' laws are unnecessary because the characteristics they cover are considered to be just a normal part of life's rich tapestry.
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Re: Scottish Hate Crime law

Post by Shilo »

It’s all in the attitude of the one on the receiving end. Some women are flattered by wolf whistles some feel threatened. The failsafe is that it is NOT accepatable. Don’t do it. Some men can handle negative comments some feel abused. It is NOT acceptable. Like wise outright threats are not acceptable.
It may seem a minor issue to some but both examples can restrict the way people dress. A woman in revealing clothes is no more signalling sexual availability than a man in a skirt is signalling he is a potential sex offender. These attitudes need to be stamped on hard.
:roll:
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