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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:23 am
by pelmut
Stu wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 am
... If, for example, a church offers a "cure" based on prayer or whatever, then I believe they should be entitled to do that on the same basis that we allow all kinds of alternative medicines that are scientifically unproven.
Unfortunately some of these 'cures' (for something that is not an illness) are indistinguishable from torture; that's fair enough if you are a masochist and acting of your own volition.  What if you are a child whose parents have been brainwashed by their church into believing that you are evil and can only be cured of it by their methods?

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:57 pm
by Stu
pelmut wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:23 am
Unfortunately some of these 'cures' (for something that is not an illness) are indistinguishable from torture; that's fair enough if you are a masochist and acting of your own volition.  What if you are a child whose parents have been brainwashed by their church into believing that you are evil and can only be cured of it by their methods?
That's why I said "entirely of their own volition!". It should never be done to a child, but we can't protect adults from being brainwashed by religion.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:16 pm
by Grok
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:53 am

Many, if not most people won't notice what your wearing at all, unless it's a really striking dress, because most of what men wear isn't worth noticing. So no one bothers to notice at all anymore.
Good point!

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:53 am
by Faldaguy
Ray » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:31 pm

If any body, religious or otherwise, rejects or vilifies homosexuality, they should be ignored - or challenged on their antediluvian ways.

I ignore churches and all religious teachings. Life is better that way for me. I find many religious people slightly hypocritical. On the one hand, they preach compassion and goodness to one’s fellows. As long as you’re not gay in which case it’s a sin.

As for condemning lefthandedness - you’re joking, right? What sort of moron world see that as a sin?
My third grade teacher -- my left hand was a bore witness to her ruler...

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:23 am
by rode_kater
Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:31 pm
As for condemning lefthandedness - you’re joking, right? What sort of moron world see that as a sin?
In NL into the 60's you were forced to write with the right hand, whether or not is was your dominant hand. I know this from my parents. According to wikipedia it's still the case in some Asian countries.

It's really a problem that I think went away with technology: I always used a fine-liner with liquid ink and that dries faster than I can write, so smudging was just never an issue. The biro was already a vast improvement. I can imagine it being a bigger issue with quill pens.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:46 pm
by pelmut
Stu wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:57 pm
pelmut wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:23 am
Unfortunately some of these 'cures' (for something that is not an illness) are indistinguishable from torture; that's fair enough if you are a masochist and acting of your own volition.  What if you are a child whose parents have been brainwashed by their church into believing that you are evil and can only be cured of it by their methods?
That's why I said "entirely of their own volition!". It should never be done to a child, but we can't protect adults from being brainwashed by religion.
That's where it gets difficult: how do you prevent a parent from treating their child badly when they have been brainwashed into believing it is the right thing to do by the most influential group in their life?  We should protect adults from being brainwashed by religion when it harms children.   So-called religious groups who incite their followers to commit torture, physical or mental, of children or young adults should be held accountable by the law; calling it a religion is no excuse.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 pm
by Ray
Funny, isn’t it? I look at right handers and think to myself, “that’s just odd!” ;-)

I’m glad I didn’t grow up in the 60s or in the Netherlands. I’d have been expelled for flat out refusing to conform.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:40 pm
by pelmut
rode_kater wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:23 am
[Left handedness is] really a problem that I think went away with technology: I always used a fine-liner with liquid ink and that dries faster than I can write, so smudging was just never an issue. The biro was already a vast improvement. I can imagine it being a bigger issue with quill pens.
I am left-handed and had to learn to write with a metal-nibbed pen on a kind of paper that was little better than blotting paper - the desk top received more ink than the paper did.  I am still glad that my teacher didn't try to force me to change hands.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:50 pm
by Jim
It would be "mental torture" for some to not support a child that wants to change sexual ID, while to others to allow this would be serious abuse. And some groups support mothers killing their children even before they're born! Even tearing the child's limbs off without anesthetic! But others have the opinion that stopping the killing is abusive! See how this gets tricky. (I'm not offering my opinion here; let's don't make abortion a topic of our debate.)

I don't think we should legislate what groups may teach. Any way we went there would be massive resistance.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:01 pm
by Stu
pelmut wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:46 pm
That's where it gets difficult: how do you prevent a parent from treating their child badly when they have been brainwashed into believing it is the right thing to do by the most influential group in their life?  We should protect adults from being brainwashed by religion when it harms children.   So-called religious groups who incite their followers to commit torture, physical or mental, of children or young adults should be held accountable by the law; calling it a religion is no excuse.
You can never stop a parent brainwashing their own child about anything. Who is to say what is brainwashing and what is simply raising a child by your own best lights? What you can, and should, do is seek to prevent actual "treatment" that amounts to harm. I specifically stated that I would not support any "treatment" which encouraged a child to question his or her gender or sexual orientation or to seek to change it, so we are talking about what can be done to adults. I have no issue with religious groups offering a "gay cure" to adults, so long as they are wholly voluntary and that they do not make scientific or medical claims of efficacy.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:28 pm
by Freedomforall
Stu wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:01 pm
pelmut wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:46 pm
You can never stop a parent brainwashing their own child about anything. Who is to say what is brainwashing and what is simply raising a child by your own best lights? What you can, and should, do is seek to prevent actual "treatment" that amounts to harm. I specifically stated that I would not support any "treatment" which encouraged a child to question his or her gender or sexual orientation or to seek to change it, so we are talking about what can be done to adults. I have no issue with religious groups offering a "gay cure" to adults, so long as they are wholly voluntary and that they do not make scientific or medical claims of efficacy.
This is not exactly on the topic of gender but it does relate to children and their parental influence. We had an incident a few weeks ago. A person was high and running around the neighborhood knocking on doors. My next door neighbors are both what I would call extreme redneck and narrow minded. We were all gathered around talking about the incident. My neighbor has three girls and they all range from three to thirteen. He began to use racial slurs to describe the individual that had been running through our yards. I immediately cringed and began thinking of how terrible it was. All his children were present. There so many implications and responsibilities he was ignoring with his horrid language. What if his children go to school and use that language? What damage would it do to others who hear them talk like that? What if it invokes conflict involving one of his children and they are harmed? There are so many more things that could be said and I cannot possibly name them all. I can only hope that somehow his children will realize how wrong it all was and is.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 am
by Pdxfashionpioneer
If his children use that language in school and a teacher hears it, in most school districts the child will be corrected.

Btw, where do you live? I don't see it in the block with your picture and name.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:33 am
by greenboots
Stu wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:48 am
Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:02 am
I have no idea what a better approach on her part would look like, however. Perhaps a simple "go ahead, it's fine to be curious" or something similar. What do you all think?
I am not sure what was in her mind. Maybe she should have just smiled and left him to it as saying anything would have scared him off. I don't think small retailers are in a position to do much. The larger outlets, however, would be in a better position to take a few risks with their marketing. They could start by declaring all their children's' lines to be unisex - no more "boys'" and "girls'" sections. But that has been done by some and it is an empty gesture if they don't follow it up by showing ranges being modelled by children of both sexes in their store graphics and advertising. It is this follow-up that hasn't happened and that would be a breakthrough.
John Lewis in teh UK did this in 2017 (https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/john-le ... drens-wear), but the the layout of their stores still suggested which were boy and girl clothes. I note their website again explicity says "Boys" and "Girls", even on individual items.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
by Freedomforall
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 am
If his children use that language in school and a teacher hears it, in most school districts the child will be corrected.

Btw, where do you live? I don't see it in the block with your picture and name.
I live on the Tennessee/Kentucky border just 30 miles north of Nashville. I hope to move in the next few years.

Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:32 pm
by STEVIE
The simple fact is that the profit motive is the driver for retailers, large or small.
They will not take an inherent risk without some prospect of return in the shape of increased sales.
Kids' clothes are maybe even more complex in that the offer is not directed at the end user.
Start with the parents, grandparents and other relations. Then we also have the gift purchase element from anyone at all.
The point is that all these folks buy with their own attitudes and opinions with regard to gender based clothing. They are also going to be highly conscious of how they themselves would be judged for buying little Johnny a pretty dress or even a pink tee shirt.
That is even before we consider whether Johnny himself may want a dress or love the "girly" hues.
I wouldn't hold my breath for a surge in that demand anytime soon especially in the current trading conditions.
Steve.