“I never joke about my work 007.”

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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crfriend
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by crfriend »

It's that third aspect that I am attempting to avoid by differentiation of Men in Skirts from the other assorted alphabet soup. Sure, there will statistically be a subset who are in the alphabet-soup bloc but statistically most won't. There's no point in making an already big hill bigger and steeper.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:21 pm
It's that third aspect that I am attempting to avoid by differentiation of Men in Skirts from the other assorted alphabet soup. Sure, there will statistically be a subset who are in the alphabet-soup bloc but statistically most won't. There's no point in making an already big hill bigger and steeper.
It is tackling the second aspect that will give more widespread results for less effort in the long run.  By saying "...but we aren't homosexuals", you are implicitly supporting the false slurs against homosexuals by failing to deny them.  Far better to say "Stop ignorantly lumping together homosexuals, pædophiles and men in skirts, we are all completely different".
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

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pelmut wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:13 pm
It is tackling the second aspect that will give more widespread results for less effort in the long run.
Upon reflection, I can absolutely support that.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Spirou003 »

Just a little word about why I don't want to join some LGBT community. If I'm joining some pride, people (not all but a significant part of them) that see me will think of me as one of the LGBT people. That's harmless for most of us, but it is not for me because I'm a bit despair (a lot, in fact) with my endless celibate. I'm not afraid to be labelled LGBT, I'm already sometimes labelled that way by certain people. But I don't want to help them labelling me that way by joining LGBT pride, because that would also mean I'm lengthen my celibate (I'm looking for straight woman looking for straight man. A man labelled LGBT is not straight, then each woman labelling me LGBT is a woman I'll never have any chance with), which is definitely not what I want. And being accepted by LGBT community is not to be worthy to get out of my celibate as none of them will become my wife.

For sure, it can be worthy for some men in skirt to join LGBT community, but that's not the case of all men in skirt. At least, I feel that's true for me.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

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pelmut wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:13 pm
By saying "...but we aren't homosexuals", you are implicitly supporting the false slurs against homosexuals by failing to deny them.  Far better to say "Stop ignorantly lumping together homosexuals, pædophiles and men in skirts, we are all completely different".
As I'm part of the significant (but minority) portion of the population that believes that homosexual behavior, like all sex outside of marriage, is sinful, I do not want to be seem to be supporting something I believe is wrong. I have no need to argue the point here; it should only matter to those whose primary goal is to please God.

BUT, I agree with your statement "Stop ignorantly lumping together homosexuals, pædophiles and men in skirts, we are all completely different".
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I’m sorry Jim, but I don’t see your point.

Recognizing that we’re a subset of the miscellaneous group designated “Q” and standing up with the people who have stood up for us is in no way advocating for sex outside of marriage. The right for same sex couples to marry was an early goal of the Pride Movement and as far as I know that right is recognized in most, if not all, developed nations, is it not?

Similarly, Spirou you’re missing an important point. One of the short-term goals of the LGBTQ (please stop leaving out the Q when referring to the Pride Movement) is to educate people on the nuances among people whose Sexual Orientation, Sexual Identity, Gender Identity and Gender Expression differs from the norm. Until more people figure out those differences there will be that many more people who will ignorantly write you and all of the rest of us off as homosexuals.

So, unless you intend to try to hide your skirt wearing from your future wife, your best bet is to make common cause with the people who are trying to educate the public and create a safe environment for those of us who differ with the ridiculous and narrow boundaries of what it means to be a “Real Man.”
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Kirbstone »

Probably like Jim, I belong to that section of the community who hold the view that 'Marriage is an institution ordained by God to join a man and a woman for the procuration of the human race'.
Jim describes homosexual behaviour as sex outside marriage. Many states, Ireland included, have voted to legalize 'marriage' between same-sex 'couples'. My personal view is that such legal unions should have another name, as the original purpose of marriage clearly does not apply. No-one has come up with another name for it....yet.

Close to home, in my own family a niece living in Ottawa married a girl and they live together as a couple. Compounding this, our niece had one of her eggs fertilized by UVF and the resulting healthy boy (Quin) is the image of his late Great- Uncle Nick at the same age. Genes! The sperm donor (father) is a cousin of the other party in the union/marriage and that information will be given to little Quin at some time in the future. Complicated!

They visited us here in Ireland in Summer 2019 and stayed a whole week, so we got a good look at their little 'family' and we wish them every blessing, of course. Exactly how Quin will take all this on board as he grows up remains to be seen, but it's a very modern development, that's for sure.

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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by rode_kater »

Kirbstone wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:04 am
My personal view is that such legal unions should have another name, as the original purpose of marriage clearly does not apply. No-one has come up with another name for it....yet.
My experience is that people are not really hung up about the name "marriage" so much as all the rights that come with it. If you are married it has consequences for inheritance, adoption rights, visitation rights, how you are considered a single fiscal entity, tax benefits, etc. They tried to fob off the LGBTQI community off with civil unions for a while until it was pointed out that the entire difference between civil unions and marriage is that the latter gives you way more rights.

Civil unions exist for different reasons and you don't want to conflate the two, there are situations where you want a simpler construct.

Where I live you have "civil marriages" and "religious marriages". The former gives you all the rights, the latter satisfies people's religious beliefs and their communities. You can do either, both, they don't have to happen on the same day (although typically they do). Typically you pop down to the registry office after the church service and before the party.

I know common law countries (US, UK, Australia, etc) conflate this into a single service, but I think the separation here makes it clear we're talking about two completely different things. And as such we don't need a separate name for them.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

Kirbstone wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:04 am
Exactly how Quin will take all this on board as he grows up remains to be seen, but it's a very modern development, that's for sure.
He will almost certainly have no problem with it -- but he might have a problem with the way some adults react to it.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

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A good number of years ago, I got button-holed about my views toward homosexual (I want to see the term "gay" returned to its rightful place in the lexicon) marriage, and in typical manner side-stepped all the religious objections by pointing up that the institution of marriage is fundamentally a matter of contract law -- having primarily to do with distribution of wealth and property at death -- conferred unto a pair of individuals by the state and via license. If the state is allowed to discriminate for any reason on that there's a problem, because by law we are allowed to enter into contracts with others for any reason, or no reason at all. Does the State have the right to tell me who I can hire as a plumber? No. Should the State have the right to tell me who I can marry? Similarly, No.

Dave, please stop pushing the notion that just because someone decides to shove both legs down one pipe instead of two that he's on the trans-* spectrum. It's false, it's offensive, and it's getting old. I do not care one whit whether you are or not; stop branding others.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Grok »

Grok wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:39 pm
Historically, and in the present, there have been cultures in which skirt-like, dress-like, and robe-like garments have been deemed mainstream menswear.

Unfortunately, Western Civilization dictated (with very few exceptions) a Trousers Tyranny for men. So if open ended garments were worn almost exclusively by women, it is not surprising that skirts came to be strongly associated with femininity. Hence the Taboo against MIS.

However, as this Taboo is a social construct (and a rather stupid one), it is not surprising that some otherwise conforming Cis/Hetero men are interested in wearing skirts.

I recall a post describing the membership of Skirts Cafe. It is not monolithic. You have members who are otherwise conforming Cis/Hetero men who are interested in skirts. You have free stylers. What they have in common is an interest in open ended garments. And despite the differences Skirt Cafe has been able to function due to a sort of libertarian/live-and-let-live vibe.

My point being that I would be careful about over generalizing regarding members. Some members may have a perspective quite different from yours.
Reposting this, because I have an important point that seems to have been ignored.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Grok »

Over the years, people have mentioned the advantages of skirts, or the reasons why they like skirts, and these comments are often unrelated to gender or sexuality.

Given that, it is not surprising that some Cis/Hetero men are interested in skirts, and want to wear them without being associated with LBGT. Because LBGT is not what they are-and Cis/Hetero men would be true to themselves without any such association.

As for wives, or women a Cis/Hetero man may wish to date....

I have to wonder if some wives are upset because they thought they were marrying a Cis/Hetero man, and then assumed that the husband's interest in MIS meant that he isn't Cis/Hetero.

As for dating, I believe that one of the first hoops a man must jump through is showing adherence to traditional masculinity.

For the purpose of attracting women, being associated with LBGT will only be detrimental to a Cis/Hetero male. To avoid that, he is likely to stick to trousers.

There is one exception to the Taboo. I recall a comment about the reaction of women to a kilted man-they either love it, or hate it. The trick for a Cis/Hetero male is to get a non-kilt design accepted by women.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

Grok wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:25 pm
Over the years, people have mentioned the advantages of skirts, or the reasons why they like skirts, and these comments are often unrelated to gender or sexuality.
In my case I initially told myself I was trying out skirts to see what they felt like, this was sort-of true but I could not see into the deeper reasons behind it.  At the time I had no concept of 'transgender' and even less idea that it might apply to me.  Thinking back to those times, I now realise that my real reason for trying them was to find out what women experienced.  Those were my reasons, but there are a hundred others that have nothing to do with sex or gender.  

For many years I wore skirts (and joined this group) believing I was a man, it is only recently I have realised I am transgender, but that makes no difference.  If I were to get out of bed tomorrow morning and find that overnight I had magically become cis-gendered and no longer had transness to explain why I wear a skirt, I would still put my skirt on without hesitation because I have become so used to them and all their advantages that I would hate to be restricted to only wearing trousers.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Spirou003 »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:55 am
(...)
So, unless you intend to try to hide your skirt wearing from your future wife, your best bet is to make common cause with the people who are trying to educate the public and create a safe environment for those of us who differ with the ridiculous and narrow boundaries of what it means to be a “Real Man.”
Yes, that might be true. But you can't educate somebody that doesn't want to be educated (regardless of the reason, that could be something like lack of interrest, reject about the subject, more interrested by something else, etc.) and even if you think you did, that person will forgive everything (I did it with a lot of things I learned at school or from certain people I met even recently). That means there will always be people not aware about all that and also that means these people will represent a significant part of all them.

About missing Q in LGBT, it's just because I'm used to speak about it using 4 letters, the same way I'm used to speak about BDSM with 4 letters and if one day people will want to add an extra letter to it I will omit it the same way (but I'm off topic, now)

Also, I won't hide my skirts from my wife. Wearing a skirt is now a part of me, I don't want to hide it the same way I did it with other things (like BDSM I did hide for 15 years) and getting slightly more consumed time after time by that secret. Anyway, I am who I am, if a woman doesn't want me to be who I am, she can just go away.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Spirou003 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:51 pm
Anyway, I am who I am, if a woman doesn't want me to be who I am, she can just go away.
Here I have to agree with you. I am a straight sis male! I do not want to be associated with the lgbtqrsyg or any thing other than MIS. And no Dave I did not put them in caps on purpose.

I do not believe any one should have to align themselves with any group just to wear skirts and dresses period....

As for these groups helping the straight man in skirts they DON'T. They actually hinder the straight man in a skirt by adding baggage we do not need..

Now if this is offensive to you or anyone else then so be it...
Fred :kiltdance:

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"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
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