“I never joke about my work 007.”

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Post Reply
Dust
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:53 am
I facetiously said that the whole point of all of these categories is to get everyone so flummoxed with them they would shove all of the labels over the rail and, as Carl and a number of say you yearn for, get to the point where we stop judging people by their label and in fact give little thought to how we might categorize them, and not judge them, but accept them as PEOPLE. Period.

So if that wasn't serious, what is the end game? (While I could tell it was meant to read as facetious hyperbole, you can tell a lot from how people "joke" about what is actually important to them. See also feminist "jokes" about male tears and killing men.) Like progressivism generally, I can never get a consistent answer (or often any answer at all) as to what we are supposed to be progressing towards. You say you don't want labels as you make more up. Which is it? Where is all this headed?
Dust
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:53 am
Dust also said he didn't want to broadcast a message, he just wants to be able to wear his skirts in public. Newsflash everyone! that IS a message. And the message is that contrary to social norms, it's perfectly okay for a man to wear a skirt in public. A subtext is, "We really DO live in free countries where we're allowed to be ourselves. So now that you've seen I can be me and have people accept me; YOU can be you!"

Just like there is no such thing as an unbiased source, there is no such thing as attire that doesn't say something about the wearer. I'll give you that.

However, I would like to wear what I wear in a way that doesn't read as homosexual, or "I'd like you to treat me as a woman" to the general public. That's despite the fact that women are generally treated better than men in our society. Men are second class citizens today. I'm trying to help, in my own little way, to fix that.

On a side note, "you be you" is terrible advice. Some people are a-holes, and most people (or perhaps everyone) should probably be trying to change themselves into something better. I'm trying to improve myself, not "be me."
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:53 am
It didn't take long after I started wearing dresses to church for people to come up to me to tell me how brave I was. At first that embarrassed me. Brave? "Running into a burning building to save lives is brave. Wearing a dress? You've got to be kidding, half the world's population wears them and thinks nothing of it." But if so many intelligent people whom I respected said it was brave, I had to own it. For a little while, I felt I was almost obliged to put on my skirts and dresses so that other people could see they didn't have to hide their individuality anymore.

So, I agree wholeheartedly with Moonshadow, Pelmut and Faldaguy; we're given more license to wear our skirts than we were even 10 years ago because of the Pride Movement. And now, here in the US, they have recently obtained for us the legal right to wear our skirts to work.

They've stood up for us so it's long overdue that we stand up for them.
I too, would recoil at someone calling me brave, just for wearing a piece of clothing. I would also like to be remembered for more than just my attire. It's a balancing act. I do sometimes meet new people in a kilt or skirt. Sometimes it is a decision on my part ahead of time, knowing that I'm going to meet someone new, and making that choice. Sometimes I have a conversation I wouldn't have had otherwise, because I happened to be wearing it.

I don't know how much it has changed in ten years. Ten years ago I was relatively new to all this skirt wearing stuff.

I do know, however, that in my lifetime, women have been fairing objectively better in this country overall, and at the same time have been given a lot of extra encouragement and benefits to help them along. Women get built up and encouraged, while men are denigrated and torn down. I saw it as a child, and it planted seeds that lead in part to where I am now.

To say that any change in attitudes are the result of any one, single force in society is an over-simplification, however. Life is just not that simple. Just like my journey to where I am now, which took a lot of unexpected turns due to events that only God could foresee, the meanderings of societal attitudes are driven by a lot of different forces.
Dust
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Dust »

pelmut wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:36 pm
rode_kater wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:27 pm
I realised I don't think they know where to place us either. There was a presentation at work for pride week to explain the whole trans thing and they had four categories you could be non-binary in:

* sex (which bits)
* gender identity (man/woman)
* homosexual/heterosexual/asexual
* gender expression (masculine/feminine)
Let's look at that list in another way:  None of those categories are binary but for generations they have been artificially divided into two sub-categories which is patently incorrect and then those sub-categories have been artificially linked in ways which are demonstrably false.  No wonder they don't know where to place men in skirts, they are using a broken system to generate meaningless results -- and then they compound the error by saying that we are the ones at fault for not conforming to their muddled ideas.
The cases where the "sex (which bits)" part is not binary are vanishingly rare, and really have nothing to do with transgender anything. Intersex persons deserve our respect, but when I saw an "I" for intersex briefly added to LGBT, it smacked of using these folks to further an agenda that has almost nothing to do with them.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

Dust wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:02 am
[...]
The cases where the "sex (which bits)" part is not binary are vanishingly rare, and really have nothing to do with transgender anything.
I think somewhere between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 4,500 people are born with "ambiguous" genitals, which are the obvious external signs that they may be intersex.  Whichever figure you take, in a population as big as America's, that's a lot of people who have given false information on their official documents through no fault of their own.
Intersex persons deserve our respect, but when I saw an "I" for intersex briefly added to LGBT, it smacked of using these folks to further an agenda that has almost nothing to do with them.
I agree; I wish they would stop categorising people and then linking them in ways that are clearly wrong.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1404
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Hello Spirou,

I'm sorry, you're right; I got you mixed up with Rode_Kader.

Dust,

I don't know what your problem is, but no one is looking for special rights. The Black Lives Matter and Pride movements just want equal treatment and unfortunately, they have received so much ill-treatment they have to get that equality spelled out in law.

If you really believe that women are treated so much better than men now, I dare you to say so to a woman in your age bracket. Or better yet, in mine. I just turned 70 on Sunday the 9th.

As to the rest of your unfounded rants, as someone else said recently in another thread, please don't mistake my silence as agreement on anything you said.

As to the things you asked, I think I made myself clear; read my posts. Word for word.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Sinned »

I just skip all these threads that split arguments about sex, gender and so on and stifle a yawn. Completely pointless to me. It's a bit like the two elephants listening to two scientists discussing the definitions and functions of "elephantness" and one elephant saying to the other, "Don't know what they are wittering about, I know what an elephant is and it's me." I don't really care what the arguments and definitions of gender are - I'm me, outside of those definitions and the world can go f*ck itself. So go on and on and on .... but count me out.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Faldaguy
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:09 am

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Faldaguy »

by Sinned » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:31 pm

I just skip all these threads that split arguments about sex, gender and so on and stifle a yawn. Completely pointless to me. It's a bit like the two elephants listening to two scientists discussing the definitions and functions of "elephantness" and one elephant saying to the other, "Don't know what they are wittering about, I know what an elephant is and it's me." I don't really care what the arguments and definitions of gender are - I'm me, outside of those definitions and the world can go f*ck itself. So go on and on and on .... but count me out.
I"d not put it quite so bluntly, but yes Dennis, I too feel we get overly caught up in the "defining" for everyone else and sadly I see in these spats far too much picking on snippets when there is essentially a basic underlying agreement on the key points of just accepting and respecting all for who and 'what' they are or may wish to be considered. Even those of us who somewhat agree to wear a given label, have a whole slew of minor qualifications we add -- perhaps none of us really want to wear a label -- just a skirt, or kilt, or a dress, or.... and be ourselves. I do think we can try to use our language distinctions to get a little more insight into other's feelings and thinking, but there is no need to battle for claiming 'rightness' to the ten thousandth decimal point. Live and let live.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

Labelling people is, for the most part, unnecessary and pointless; but if we are going to be labelled, at least we want to be labelled correctly.  Sorting out the labels is time-consuming and can become tedious when it has to be repeated time after time for the benefit of each innocent newcomer who has been exposed to years of muddled misrepresentation by the media, politicians, misguided campaigners and some (not all) religions.

We are fighting a lot of prejudice and labels are an insidious part of it.  Getting out there and just wearing a skirt is much more effective than endless discussions (don't tell them, show them!), but sometimes we do need to check that our own (mis)use of labels isn't reinforcing those prejudices.
Last edited by pelmut on Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
rivegauche
Distinguished Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by rivegauche »

I agree that the sex and gender thing can be over-thought. As well as wearing womenswear as a man, a lot of the time I dress as a woman. I don't ever identify as a woman even when presenting as one in public. You would not believe the criticism I get for this on a site called crossdressers.com. Apparently if I go out acting as a woman I MUST be transgender and if I believe otherwise I am deluded. So if I am in a play and act as Napoleon and enjoy it I must secretly want to BE Napoleon? Some guys just like skirts and dresses. Some guys like to dress as a woman. Some guys do indeed want to be women. It is harmless in itself. No labels needed - just do it. If I had to use a label I am a gender tourist.
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Grok »

"Gender tourist." Interesting concept! :mrgreen:
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:40 am
.. Apparently if I go out acting as a woman I MUST be transgender and if I believe otherwise I am deluded. So if I am in a play and act as Napoleon and enjoy it I must secretly want to BE Napoleon?
No, but if you regularly go out dressing and acting as Napoleon, you mustn't be too surprised if some people come to that conclusion.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1404
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

While I was going through the birthday presents I had bought for myself -- that's my rationalization for my latest contribution to the growth of the economy at my favorite websites for going broke saving money -- I got to thinking about this thread and what I'm trying to get across. I'll try to keep this as concise as possible so, if this winds up as another epic, it wasn't for lack of trying.

Western civilization is at an inflection point in the never-ending tugs of war between change and stability and between tolerance and prejudice. While these two struggles may seem to be distinct; in fact, they're not. Donald Trump promised to "Make America Great Again." When asked, "When did America stop being great?" The answer came back that it was right around the time that the Civil Rights Movement made it onto America's television screens and then everyone else started looking for their rights and ... 'Where does it all end?

Good question, it's one we have been struggling with since 1776. With any luck, that quest will never end, but sure would be nice if we could all have a conversation on the subject rather than a battle royale. Part of the problem is that most people seem to think that rights are a zero sum game. That is, if one group gets their fair share of rights, won't that take some from those who got to that well first? Not really. Those who got there first will probably lose some things they grew thinking they were entitled to, but that's quite different!

When the battle over rights gets heated there's a tendency for one side or another, if not both, to define their "enemy" over broadly. That leads to people claiming they were misidentified and therefore should be left alone.

This reaction disregards a point that was made by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." That is, if, for instance, Lesbians and Gays and Bisexuals and the Transgendered can be written off by society as less-than or perverted because they don't conform to the Gender Binary of:

Being born with external genitalia = Male = Sexually attracted to women = Masculine (as narrowly defined by society) attitudes and behavior.

When the human animal is confronted by danger, it is programmed to react with fight or flight. So if the current danger is that society looks down upon a certain behavior, say men wearing skirts, as something done by those who are less than "normal" people, let's say gays. The two reflexive reactions are to either say, "If that were true, what of it?" [Fight] or "Whoa, get off my case, I'm not one of them!" [Flight]

Things are getting down to this in our world, most clearly here in the US, but there are inklings worldwide. The argument that adopting one of the categories articulated by the Pride Movement and the LGBTQ community will just put us in the target zone with those people! Sorry. Too late. Telling people who concern themselves with such things are not going to be convinced that just because we call ourselves "Men In Skirts" that we don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the LGBTQ community. They're going to do it anyway, because it doesn't fit their definition of masculinity and in their mind that is going against the will of whatever higher power they subscribe to.

That being the case I'm saying we're better off, as a group, allying ourselves with the Pride Movement and identifying ourselves as a subset of one or another of their existing categories. I have. And my experience with the people in Basic Rights Oregon has been quite positive. They're glad to have my participation, just as I am glad for the legal foundation they have created for us men in skirts and no one seems to be unclear about or uncomfortable with who and what I am a Heterosexual, Gender-fluid Male, which puts me in the "Q" bucket.

What is so horrible about that? Btw, my genitals haven't fallen off and no one's made a grab for them.

Too bad, some of the lesbians are pretty cute!
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Sinned »

To be honest I've never ever had to justify myself to the great unwashed about my skirt wearing. I've obviously given the "comfort and in half the world men wear skirts" speech but to very little interest. Most just seem accept that I like to wear a skirt and leave it at that. I've never had anyone try to mislabel me as any of the LBABCDwhatever groups as it seems some of you have . At least not to my face. What they say when I'm not there I don't know and don't really care. The only one I still have to really convince is my wife. She doesn't moan any more when I wear a skirt but she still isn't at the point of being comfortable with me wearing one outside. So I think that's why all this talk of gender and so on is foreign and of only academic interest to me.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
rivegauche
Distinguished Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by rivegauche »

pelmut wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:17 pm
rivegauche wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:40 am
.. Apparently if I go out acting as a woman I MUST be transgender and if I believe otherwise I am deluded. So if I am in a play and act as Napoleon and enjoy it I must secretly want to BE Napoleon?
No, but if you regularly go out dressing and acting as Napoleon, you mustn't be too surprised if some people come to that conclusion.
I have two points here. One is that the labellers jump to conclusions - as you say fair enough if they do not have any more information and the message here is to have more of us wearing skirts and dresses in public simply because we like it as opposed to wanting to switch gender. The second one is less acceptable. If I tell people I am not trans and just like the clothes and the look they claim to know better than I do how I feel, which is pretty arrogant.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

rivegauche wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:52 am
[...]
I have two points here. One is that the labellers jump to conclusions
[...]
The second one ....they claim to know better than I do how I feel, which is pretty arrogant.
Absolutely.  You have shown up the difference between using labels as an aid to marshalling existing facts and using labels to support 'facts' which turn out to be spurious untruths.  There is a third stage, which is using those spurious untruths as the justification for contolling someone's behaviour.
e.g.
1)  You are a man in a skirt.
2)  Homosexual men wear skirts and are a threat to young boys (obviously untrue but widely believed until recently).
3)  You cannot have access to your son.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
Post Reply