Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

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Jim
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Jim »

Stu wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:35 pm
Sinned wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:45 pm
You could have said things in a less confrontational way.
Maybe, but frankly, I am fed up with people referring to one of my innate characteristics, my masculinity, being associated with toxicity. Would it be tolerable to use the term "toxic" in reference to somebody's race, skin colour or sexual orientation? Attitudes of individuals that give rise to bad behaviour can certainly be toxic, but to assign toxicity to an innate human characteristic is a form of bigotry, namely misandry.
I'm getting your point. Should the term be replaced with something like "toxic machismo"?

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Sinned »

The problem isn't with me. I couldn't give a toss about your arguments about toxic, masculinity or even toxic masculinity as I have no interest in such. It's just that the way of expression seemed to indicate entrenched opinions and a locked thread happening. I'll bow out and let what happens happen.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Lets get this clear: Masculinity per se isn't toxic but some of the components that are used to define masculinity in our culture are.  "Toxic masculinity" doesn't mean all aspects of masculinity are toxic, any more than "Red bus" means all buses are red -- "toxic" is the adjective applied to particular aspects of masculinity.  Aggression, intolerance and lack of empathy are among those attributes which many people believe are a necessary part of being masculine but which deserve to be called toxic.

There is also toxic feminity, but some the attributes are different or find expression in a different way.

Many men have these toxic attributes drummed into them from such an early age that they cannot see how their behaviour appears to others.  When it is pointed out to them, they react with more aggression, because that is easier than stopping to think about what they are doing to other people and how this reflects back on them.  Trying to justify it with "that's just the way I am" shows a lack of consideration for others in the short term and a lack of consideration for themself, as a person, in the long term.  

The bullying tactics of toxic masculinity are much easier to perpetrate online because there is far less to lose.  It is even possible to avoid losing an argument by constantly shifting topic and obscuring valid responses with untruths and accusations.  Unless the moderators are ever-vigilant and can step in to counteract that sort of behaviour, it will escalate to the point where the thread has to be locked, leaving aggrieved contributors who feel they have been bullied and then punished for defending themselves.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by moonshadow »

Ahh hell, asshole-itis doesn't care what's between someone's legs.

Besides, everyone can be a jerk from time to time! Lord knows I ain't no saint!
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

Jim wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:24 am
I'm getting your point. Should the term be replaced with something like "toxic machismo"?

Yes. That would be exactly right, Jim.

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:17 pm
Aggression, intolerance and lack of empathy are among those attributes which many people believe are a necessary part of being masculine but which deserve to be called toxic.
I don't know anyone who believes that such attributes are a necessary part of being masculine. I didn't raise my son with such a belief.

Would you say the same about any other demographic by picking out negative aspects that relate to some members of it? Toxic blackness, perhaps? Some people could make a case for that. Toxic Jewishness? Toxic homosexuality? This is pretty vile stuff. Let's not do it to any group.

The disagreement over "toxic masculinity" is essentially one of semantics - the words we use. I have my views and you have yours. If people want to discuss this in a civilized and mutually respectful way, then maybe we should use the "Other Topics" category. But we are all grown-ups and there is no reason to run away from this.

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:00 pm
...Would you say the same about any other demographic by picking out negative aspects that relate to some members of it? Toxic blackness, perhaps? Some people could make a case for that. Toxic Jewishness? Toxic homosexuality?
Yes, there are toxic aspects within almost any group and it is a good thing to point them out. I have encountered toxic religion, toxic national identity, toxic dancers and toxic radio amateurs to name but a few.
This is pretty vile stuff. Let's not do it to any group.
That is not the same thing as saying that every member of that group has those attributes or that pointing out a problem within a group is 'doing' anything to the group as a whole, other than alerting them to the problem. Toxic masculinity is not something every male has, but when it does occur, it needs to be pointed out and dealt with.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:30 pm
Yes, there are toxic aspects within almost any group and it is a good thing to point them out. I have encountered toxic religion, toxic national identity, toxic dancers and toxic radio amateurs to name but a few.
Of course there are toxic characteristics within a group, but to claim a direct association between a demographic and a shameful characteristic must only be done where such an association is proven (with solid evidence); and (2) is specific to that group. No such evidence has been advanced for "toxic masculinity" - indeed, many scholars claim it to be a myth and with good cause. The behaviours described are far from specific to males and there is an abundance of evidence that females exhibit them, too.

There is statistical evidence that shows if you are mugged in London, there is a far higher likelihood that your assailant will be black (as in African-Carribean) than the majority ethnicity. So should we coin the expression "toxic blackness"? No. That would quickly be called "racist" and "hate speech".
pelmut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:30 pm
Toxic masculinity is not something every male has, but when it does occur, it needs to be pointed out and dealt with.
If not every male has it, and some females exhibit the same behaviours, why make that link? This term has been used for some years by feminists as a stick with which to beat males and it is sad to see so many males buying into this bigotry. Stockholm syndrome, anyone?

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:08 am
pelmut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:30 pm
Yes, there are toxic aspects within almost any group and it is a good thing to point them out. I have encountered toxic religion, toxic national identity, toxic dancers and toxic radio amateurs to name but a few.
Of course there are toxic characteristics within a group, but to claim a direct association between a demographic and a shameful characteristic must only be done where such an association is proven (with solid evidence); and (2) is specific to that group.
Yes, that is what we have been saying, nobody on this group has claimed there is a direct association -- what made you think we were saying the opposite?

The word "toxic" was used as an adjective to describe certain types of bad behaviour that are performed by some men -- but not all men. The reason it is called toxic masculinity is because it is performed by men and is associated in the minds of some people, but not all people with their idea of masculinity.  It is a wrong idea, it should not be associated in this way -- but we have to accept that for some people it is so associated.  

It is also taught at a early age.  Compare the attitudes of wife-beaters: did they all invent wife-beating independently or were they taught that beating your wife is something men do because this is the 'masculine' way to assert themselves?  Why does wife-beating seem to run in families?

Little girls are taught to wheedle their way around Dad  for extra pocket money -- this is behaviour that later develops into toxic femininity.  Not every family does it, but for a significant number of people it is the normal way of things.
If not every male has it, and some females exhibit the same behaviours, why make that link?

Some of the toxic components of toxic masculinity are common to toxic femininity, others aren't.  The attitude of a man raping a woman because he believed "she was asking for it" would be ascribed to toxic masculinity, the attitude of a woman falsely claiming rape because she believed "all men are rapists" would be ascribed to toxic femininity.  In both cases, one person has power over the other (one physical and one legal) and is abusing it.
This term has been used for some years by feminists as a stick with which to beat males and it is sad to see so many males buying into this bigotry.
I don't see anyone here buying into that version of toxic feminism, quite the opposite.  Some feminists -- and only some feminists -- are conflating being male with being toxic, they are using the "toxic masculinity" as shorthand in a deliberately misleading way in order to achieve that conflation.  The members of this group are not fooled by that and are trying to clarify that adding an adjective "toxic" to "masculine" in circumstances when it is appropriate does not make an unbreakable bond between the two in all circumstances.  Nor does it justify the assertion that because many men do not behave in a toxic manner, toxic masculinity does not exist.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am
The word "toxic" was used as an adjective to describe certain types of bad behaviour that are performed by some men -- but not all men. The reason it is called toxic masculinity is because it is performed by men and is associated in the minds of some people, but not all people with their idea of masculinity.  It is a wrong idea, it should not be associated in this way -- but we have to accept that for some people it is so associated.  
Some men practise cannibalism - but not all men. So is cannibalism "toxic masculinity"?
pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am
It is a wrong idea, it should not be associated in this way -- but we have to accept that for some people it is so associated.
Yes, some people do make this association and then they do engage in the hate speech. When they do, I will call them out.
pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am
It is also taught at a early age. Compare the attitudes of wife-beaters: did they all invent wife-beating independently or were they taught that beating your wife is something men do because this is the 'masculine' way to assert themselves? Why does wife-beating seem to run in families?
So you think that there are parents in our society who actively teach children that wife-beating is normal behaviour in order to be classed as "masculine"? How many children do you know who are being taught this? There is precisely ZERO evidence to back that claim up - none. If it does happen - it is an aberration, not a normal part of teaching boys how to behave to their female partners. I spent 30-years as a police officer and dealt with countless instances of domestic violence - committed by both men and by women. I never once had any man who suggested that he believed this was normal. Not once. This is peddling a myth.
pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am
Little girls are taught to wheedle their way around Dad for extra pocket money -- this is behaviour that later develops into toxic femininity. Not every family does it, but for a significant number of people it is the normal way of things.
It's just human behaviour. Boys try the same thing, but girls exploit their girliness or neoteny to a greater extent. This phenomenon is even seen among some animals. Some women grow up to be gold-diggers, but it is these individuals who are "toxic", not their natural femininity.
pelmut wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am
Nor does it justify the assertion that because many men do not behave in a toxic manner, toxic masculinity does not exist.
Toxic behaviour exists: nobody disputes that. If you claim toxic masculinity is a palpable phenomenon which, by definition, is exclusive to males, then I invite you to prove it. Otherwise, it is merely an unsubstantiated negative perception about a specific demographic and therefore an example of bigotry.

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Please don't take my silence from now on as an endorsement of your views.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Stu, the circularity of your logic is staggering!

As I understand it, the expression "toxic masculinity" refers to personality characteristics commonly referred to as "masculine" that get exaggerated beyond the point where they are healthy. Generally, it is some form of assertiveness that has morphed into aggression. That is, insisting on one's own way without any regard for others and their prerogatives and rights.

Frankly, I'm simply astounded by your assertion that in none of the men who instigated the domestic violence that you were called in on during your law enforcement career felt that what they were doing was normal. It doesn't compute that men who characteristically abuse the women in their lives don't believe that what they are doing is normal. I don't care what they might say. Morning after regrets are all part of the pattern.

I also suggest you read the words people use to rebut your positions, Pelmut did NOT say that anyone intentionally teaches their sons to beat and abuse their wives. Nor do they teach their daughters, in so many words, that such is their rightful place in the world. But, I have to believe that as a parent you are fully aware that actions do in fact speak much much louder than words. Kids learn the behaviors that are modeled for them by their parents and the other significant adults in their lives. Which is what Pelmut wrote about.

I'm astounded such an obvious point has to be spelled out for you.

What's your deal? You seem to be contentious for its own sake.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:32 am

As I understand it, the expression "toxic masculinity" refers to personality characteristics commonly referred to as "masculine" that get exaggerated beyond the point where they are healthy. Generally, it is some form of assertiveness that has morphed into aggression. That is, insisting on one's own way without any regard for others and their prerogatives and rights.
I was quite happy to let this topic die, but you have decided to resurrect it. OK - for what it's worth, here is my response. What you are describing there may be considered "hyper-masculinity"; that is the ultra-macho type and certainly doesn't encompass masculinity per se, nor is the concept used by feminist bigots as a way to demonise the other half of the population.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:32 am
Frankly, I'm simply astounded by your assertion that in none of the men who instigated the domestic violence that you were called in on during your law enforcement career felt that what they were doing was normal. It doesn't compute that men who characteristically abuse the women in their lives don't believe that what they are doing is normal. I don't care what they might say. Morning after regrets are all part of the pattern.
With all due respect, you are buying into a common myth about DV - it is way more complex and nuanced. First, in my experience, the majority of domestic violence is a two-way process and is just as likely to be initiated by a woman as by a man - if not more so. In some cases, it's a straight up fight between the parties, or else they get involved in a shouting match first, followed by things being thrown, usually by the woman at the man (like drinks, kitchen implements etc), and he takes that as giving him the right to respond in kind with a shove, a slap or a punch. In a small number of cases, women purposely wind up their partners for the express intention of getting a violent response so that she can then present to friends, family, police, Social Services etc, as a victim. In some cases - and this is by no means rare - a male in a relationship is 100% the victim of female violence. Men who physically injure women in domestic situations are universally despised in our culture. If they are imprisoned for doing so, then even in the hyper-masculine environments of prisons they have to be segregated for their own good. Yes, there may have been a time in the dim and distant past when men thought they were entitled to show violence to a woman who "deserved a slap" etc, but those times were long gone even when I started in the police many decades ago.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:32 am
But, I have to believe that as a parent you are fully aware that actions do in fact speak much much louder than words. Kids learn the behaviors that are modeled for them by their parents and the other significant adults in their lives.
I don't understand your point. I am not saying bad behaviour by males, whether in the form of violence or something else, does not occur. I am saying it should not be singled out as gendered behaviour which is thereafter used to demonise one sex while presenting the opposite sex as a victim class. I am sorry if you are unable to grasp that point.

As an aside, here is a story about partner violence between lesbian couples:

https://wentworthreport.com/2017/01/08/ ... tionships/

I have yet to hear anyone talk about "toxic lesbianism" - and nor should they.

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

As Pelmut said in his last post.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Shilo »

Am astounded at Stu’s post. It’s so far away from reality that I don’t know where to begin with a rebuttal. I am taking the view of pelmut and Pdfx
:roll:

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