Sex and Gender

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Jim
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Sex and Gender

Post by Jim »

Here and there I've seen many discussions on the subject, so I figured I could offer my own proposals. What do folks here think?

Gender and Sex
Thoughts by Jim


So much controversy comes from unclear language so start with definitions.

Definitions
Sex: Refers to biology. There are two sexes, male and female, and occassional intersex conditions, so three choices, M, F, or I. Sex is defined by chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. Sex is not changeable.

Gender: Refers to social role. Masculine and Feminine are the predominate genders that traditionally have correlated with male and female sexes. One's gender does not have to correspond with one's sex and other gender choices, names and definitions are acceptable. One's gender can change.

Social Issues
Sports: Sports are physical and therefore should be based on biology. Testosterone builds muscle mass. If one has or had testicles that produce testosterone and the body can or could use testosterone one does not participate in female sports. The alternative to female sports are open sports where anyone can participate regardless of sex or gender.

Pronouns: Refer to gender, not sex. Decide one a set of pronouns that cover "that one whose gender is unknown, immaterial, or neither masculine or feminine". This set of pronouns is to be acceptable for anyone.

Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match, or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.

Restrooms: This is a social situation so determined by gender, not sex. Have "everyone" restrooms available. As people learn this works fine, the masculine and feminine restrooms can be gradually phased out as local conditions allow.

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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

My thoughts on it...

I just don't know man... I'm sure this thread will be quite disappointing as based on some other threads I've read (and stayed out of mind you...) I didn't realize so many members here had lines so firmly drawn on issues.

My thoughts on it...

People are crazy. Love them anyway....
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

Stu
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Stu »

The definitions I agree with and I broadly agree with the sports, although I think the type of sport may be relevant as well as the age at which the competitor underwent physical gender reassignment.

I do not agree the other social issues. Pronouns belong to the speaker and not the referent, so the speaker chooses the pronouns they see fit to use when speaking to another party about you. You, as the referent, have no right to determine the semantic and grammatical choices made by a speaker to another person. Marriage is determined by social convention. I have no objections to post-op trans people marrying someone of their original sex as the parties are now opposite sex. Changes to the definition of what a marriage is and the qualifications for it should be chosen by a cultural consensus and facilitated/ratified by the law - it should not be decided arbitrarily by lawmakers based on their ideological convictions or opinions. For the sake of decency and comfort of all users, restrooms, showering and changing facilities should follow physiology and not preference or how one identifies. I would vehemently and aggressively object if someone who was obviously female entered a male changing room or toilet while I was using it.

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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

... and so it begins... :|

I hope there's enough soap boxes to go around... :roll:
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Jim wrote:Thoughts by Jim
So much controversy comes from unclear language so start with definitions.
Definitions
Sex: Refers to biology. There are two sexes, male and female, and occassional intersex conditions, so three choices, M, F, or I. Sex is defined by chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. Sex is not changeable.
I agree with this statement since it is a reproducible output in the lab.
Jim wrote:Gender: Refers to social role. Masculine and Feminine are the predominate genders that traditionally have correlated with male and female sexes. One's gender does not have to correspond with one's sex and other gender choices, names and definitions are acceptable. One's gender can change.
Once again I have to agree. Sex and gender do not have to agree with each other.
Jim wrote:Social Issues
Sports: Sports are physical and therefore should be based on biology. Testosterone builds muscle mass. If one has or had testicles that produce testosterone and the body can or could use testosterone one does not participate in female sports. The alternative to female sports are open sports where anyone can participate regardless of sex or gender.
Sports are best left to those who play them and make up the rules. I could not care one way or the other.
Jim wrote:Pronouns: Refer to gender, not sex. Decide one a set of pronouns that cover "that one whose gender is unknown, immaterial, or neither masculine or feminine". This set of pronouns is to be acceptable for anyone.
It really does not make any difference what pronoun is used by the speaker or the listener if it makes a difference to you just use "IT".
Jim wrote:Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match, or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
Remember to keep the church and state separate.
Jim wrote:Restrooms: This is a social situation so determined by gender, not sex. Have "everyone" restrooms available. As people learn this works fine, the masculine and feminine restrooms can be gradually phased out as local conditions allow.
I do not care one way or the other on this issue as I have used open bath room facilities. I did not have any problems nor did the other occupants of which there were several of both sexes present.
Last edited by Fred in Skirts on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951

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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

^ :clap:

There might be hope yet....
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

Here's a string to pull on....

Something I thought a little deeper about that I posted on another thread:

From this post. (link)
moonshadow wrote:If trans-life has everything to do with what the mind believes itself to be,...
What is the gender of the mind? Here I inadvertently referred to the mind as an "it", which is considered a gender neutral pronoun.

Indeed, the mind does not have a penis or a vagina. It's a mind. What is a mind? The dictionary defines a "mind" as "The part or faculty of a person by which one feels, perceives, thinks, remembers, desires, and imagines."

I'm feeling a eureka moment coming on, but I can't quite put my finger on it.... nevertheless, this mental knot does seem to be loosening.
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

pelmut
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by pelmut »

Jim wrote: Freedom of Religion: A religious group is free to require that sex and gender match,
How can they do that?  That's like saying they require nobody to be left-handed or have brown eyes.

They can exclude transgender people from their church, or rail against them, which raises the question whether a cult which practices exclusion and hatred can be classed as a religion.  They can produce ancient texts which they translate as condemning transgender people or denying their existence; at best, this makes them look like a group of ignorant bigots, at worst a gang of culpable liars.  They can attempt to brainwash children and drive them to suicide - but this is now banned in most civilised places.
or to require that a marriage be between those of opposite sex, and to make membership and employment decisions based on following those requirements.
Membership perhaps, but not employment.  Religion should not take precedence over the law and no belief, however sincerely held, should give you the right to ruin someone elses life.  Imagine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.

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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

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pelmut wrote:magine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.
Ironically, that's highly illegal in the U.S., but not the other way around....
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

pelmut
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by pelmut »

moonshadow wrote:
pelmut wrote:Imagine the fuss there would be if a homosexual boss gave 'membership of a church' as the reason for sacking an employee.
Ironically, that's highly illegal in the U.S., but not the other way around....
Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice.  That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote:Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice.  That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.
That about sums it up.
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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
pelmut wrote:Membership of a church is something you can choose to do or not do; being born homosexual is something over which you have no choice.  That sounds to me like legalised punishment of the innocent by the willfully guilty.
That about sums it up.
Yep...
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Fred in Skirts »

My personal beliefs should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
Being a member of a particular religion should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I wear is my business and should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What I am as far as sex or gender goes should not be a reason for hiring or firing.
What organizations I belong to now or in the past.

Yet all of the above are reasons that people get fired or hired, even though they are illegal. These are the true reasons but they are not the reason they give you. Just so they can say they are abiding by the laws, otherwise they would all be going to jail!!
Fred :kiltdance:

"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle."


"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951

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moonshadow
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by moonshadow »

Yeah, they could fire you, or in my case keep you on, because you do good work, but just don't let you near the big buttons and levers of the business.

Story of my life man.... story of my life.

I'm good enough to work my ass off...

... that's about it.
-Moon Shadow
"Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation." - Benjamin Franklin

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SkirtsDad
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by SkirtsDad »

Stu wrote:if someone who was obviously female entered a male changing room or toilet while I was using it.
If I was going to worry about someone peering over my shoulder whilst I'm standing there peeing, it's less likely to be the women. I'm in favour of non-gendered toilets. A friend of mine campaigned with the local university to un-gender the toilets and they did just that. Nice that one small voice can sometimes make a lot of difference.
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