Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

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pelmut
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by pelmut »

Daryl wrote:...I'm particularly apt to employ it when the topic is shot through with as many beliefs as it is with facts, as I have said in very many ways about this one.
You have stated you don't have a gender, other people have stated they do have one.  People who do have a gender have produced respected sources of scientific evidence for the existence of gender, they are the ones producing the facts.  You are dismissing the facts and asserting, without any evidence, that gender does not exist -- you are the one shooting through the topic with beliefs.
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Daryl
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:...I'm particularly apt to employ it when the topic is shot through with as many beliefs as it is with facts, as I have said in very many ways about this one.
You have stated you don't have a gender, other people have stated they do have one.
I have also stated that I don't have a soul.
People who do have a gender
People who state that they have a gender, to be precise.
have produced respected sources of scientific evidence for the existence of gender, they are the ones producing the facts.
By "produced" do you mean "presented"?

My critique of the "scientific evidence for the existence of gender" includes that the actual producers of the actual science themselves aren't calling it evidence of the existence of gender as a real thing of its own, merely evidence that our perceptions of gender come from real things. I don't dispute the science; I dispute the interpretation of it that you assert. It's a philosophical point germane to any discussion of how the idea of "gender" should be treated by society, particularly with respect to laws and government.

Our perceptions of many unreal things come from real things. For example, the theory that the world was created by an intelligent entity comes from a perception rooted in very real and scientifically verifiable facts about nature that make the "God" idea a valid hypothesis. The enormous complexity of nature, the intricacy and depth of apparent design of things, all suggest intelligence, but they don't provide a falsifiable proposition for the existence of God. God remains a belief.

For another example, the theory of "race" is founded on very real and scientifically verifiable facts about biology and heredity. That doesn't make race a real thing.
You are dismissing the facts and asserting, without any evidence, that gender does not exist -- you are the one shooting through the topic with beliefs.
You do understand that the burden of evidence is on those making a claim, don't you? I am not dismissing any facts, merely dismissing claims about what they mean.

Which "beliefs" are you claiming that I am "shooting through the topic"?
Daryl...

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Grok »

crfriend wrote:
In short, stop moving the goalposts
I suspect that which ever way the goalposts are moved, masculinity-of whatever flavor-will be a harsh, unforgiving, constricting and stultifying role.

A major difference from the past is that males will be accused of "toxic masculinity", rather than masculinity being respectable.

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

oldsalt1 wrote:Daryl I guess my point was missed . For a person making a decision at the ripe old age of three is the attraction to the item the lure of the item itself shinny color …..
or is it the underlying meaning of wearing that particular item being a boy or a girl
I pick option A, shiny colour (and other material characteristics).

I might even add a third option C: jealousy (of a cousin's outfits perhaps).

And a fourth option D: training (eg. a boy being switched to breeches after enjoying dresses until then)

Option B (meaning) would only obtain if the child had been taught that meaning somehow.
Daryl...

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

crfriend wrote:Enough. Stop the bickering. We've already lost one long-term member over this and I don't want to see any more go.
I just read this now, scrolling down to find something else. So, in the unlikely chance that I am perceived to be "bickering" I will immediately cease and desist any, umm, bickery behaviour. Sadly, this may leave me with the last word on (ahem) certain topics, so I petition for undulgence of any possible singular bickerbacks to any post I have made thus far.
Daryl...

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by crfriend »

Here's a rhetorical question for some of the folks to wrap their head around, "Of what point is the final word in a circular argument?"

Note that I have refrained from calling out names here. That was by design. Since I am not convinced that full agreement on this matter is possible, I'd like to invoke the notion of, "Can we at least agree to disagree -- politely?"
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Daryl »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:52 pm
Since I am not convinced that full agreement on this matter is possible, I'd like to invoke the notion of, "Can we at least agree to disagree -- politely?"
Sure...if we have too. :roll:

I'd actually modified my position on this topic, closer to that of my opponents, but never got to say so. It doesn't really matter enough to comment on further except to say that the reason for allowing strong debates to continue is that they can create understanding in unexpected ways, or at the very least better understanding of our debating opponents. I remember flame wars on Usenet that made the worst we've gotten into here look trivial, but I very much understand that for some people, even onlookers, they can feel so toxic they become a turnoff but also almost impossible to ignore. Moderation is an incredible balancing act, and you do it well, in my estimation, and for a forum like this. Thanks for that.
Daryl...

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by crfriend »

Daryl wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:56 pm
I'd actually modified my position on this topic, closer to that of my opponents, but never got to say so. It doesn't really matter enough to comment on further except to say that the reason for allowing strong debates to continue is that they can create understanding in unexpected ways, or at the very least better understanding of our debating opponents.
That's, ideally, the point of debate. It's not about bashing your "opponent" to a pulp, but rather to bring about mutual understanding. 'Tis a real pity that more folks don't appreciate that nuance to the art.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by dillon »

Stu wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:47 am
Hello Pdx,

I have read a couple of reports which suggested the mother was doing this:

https://thefederalist.com/2018/11/26/mo ... sagreeing/

https://www.ntd.com/mother-forces-son-t ... 62028.html

Of course, there are two sides to every story, but those of us who do not have direct knowledge have to rely on press reports.
I would suggest that references to pre-adolescent transgender issues should come from refereed psychology journals and not from right-wing propaganda websites. The entire debate in this thread has been tragically characterized by multiple correspondents asserting opinion as if it were fact. One might argue that the field of Psychology is as much art as science, but at least it is governed by a standard of enforced ethics which are not applied to either of the cited “rags.”
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Gusto10 »

This topic causes me loads of pain after having to go through a messy divorce with my in the mean time deceased ex (she fought various forms of C over 16 years). Custody and respecting the visitation rights was one of the many issues.
I.m.h.o. parents should try to find on behalf of the child or children a modus vivendi which respects the well being of the kid(s). The youth welfare services neglected and later refused after admitting such to include in my case that the mother's intention was to cause parental alienation (P.A.).
From the psychological reports I found, I'm not going to dig them up again, I learned that most parents who initiate P.A. have (a touch of ) the borderline syndrome. The situation may cause PTSS with the kid(s) in due course.
At present my former in-laws are continuing to exert pressure on my kid to continue the PA initiated by my - since 2 weeks - late ex.

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Hello Dillon,

To keep this brief, I'm naming a name, but you're not the only one in this camp. I received a PM from a long-time member of the Café who asked the moderators to remove them and asked me if I would accept personal correspondence from that member (of course).

This member quit SkirtCafe because in their opinion, the environment had become toxic for the transgendered (transsexuals). When I first read that, I thought, "Really?" I didn't feel things had gotten to that point, but when I reviewed the posts, I realized this person was right. Clearly, you didn't mean to but by insisting so strenuously on making your philosophical point on the nature of reality, you came across as giving your idiosyncratic opinions more weight than the best science.

You came across as nullifying their hard-earned identities as nothing more than a suppressed childhood desire to wear the other gender's clothes.

No sir, it's much deeper. If you had read up on the topic, you would now that male fetuses induce TWO testosterone washes.
The first, at 6-8 weeks, sets the anatomical development in motion. The second, about 8 weeks later, paints the broad outlines of one's personality. In particular, your blend of masculine and feminine personality traits. So, there is a biological foundation for gender all. Unsurprising given that all cultures recognize at least 2 genders and most cultures recognize 3 or more.

Western culture is an outlier in that it only recognizes two.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:49 am

Unsurprising given that all cultures recognize at least 2 genders and most cultures recognize 3 or more.

Western culture is an outlier in that it only recognizes two.
I know about some examples of cultures with a role outside of what we think of as the normal "gender binary", but the notion of gender in the sense it is being used here would probably be foreign to those people.

And while examples exist, "the plural of anecdote is not data," right? Can we really say which is the outlier?

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

First things first, Dillon, I apologize, I meant Darryl when I was naming names. Dillon, you stated my point well and succinctly, those who are defending the gender binary so doggedly are ignoring the facts, rather than giving us any.

Gusto, look at the data; they’re easily accessed in the January 2017 issue of Nat Geo. They give us a laundry list of cultures that recognize more than two genders and only Western culture has 2. Does that clear things up for you?

Frankly I’m amazed that I’m having to defend these facts in this forum. All of us have been oppressed all of our lives by the Gender Binary because among other things it insists that men don’t wear skirts let alone dresses. To paraphrase Marx, “MIS’s of the world, reject the Gender Binary! The only thing you have to lose is your chains of guilt and shame.”

And maybe your pants.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by Ralph »

This is obviously a hot-button issue for you, David, so I'll try not to throw oil on the fire.

First off, anecdotal evidence vs. scientific evidence. Absolutely, numerous cultures around the world recognize more than the two binary genders. A plurality, however, does not prove scientific fact. Numerous cultures also recognize multiple deities, the sacredness of cows, etc. Convince us with objective, measurable data - brain or other physiological differences between men, women, and those who identify as nonbinary/genderfluid/whatever.

Second, you don't have to accept gender fluidity in order to "cast off your [trousers] chains" as it were. As this group amply demonstrates, it is more than possible to adhere to a convinction that the two sexes correlate to two immutable gender identities while rejecting cultural norms for what those gender identities mean. That is, rather than saying we prefer skirts (or dresses, or hijabs, or whatever) because we are genderfluid or nonbinary, we still identify as male to the core - but men who happen to prefer clothes that society arbitrarily labels "for women only".

I'm not saying those who view the world that way are right and you're wrong; I'm only saying that you haven't (yet) presented objective biological evidence to support your point of view.

In any case it doesn't make any difference either way to me. I respect your point of view as it is, and you don't need to prove anything - provided you, also, are willing to accept and respect that others hold an opposing point of view without a shred of malice in their hearts. Fair enough?
Ralph!

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Re: Custody battle in Texas over 7-year-old transgender

Post by pelmut »

Ralph wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:07 am
... numerous cultures around the world recognize more than the two binary genders.
Now I am completely confused; that's like saying "numerous scientists recognise more than the two colours of the spectrum".  Pehaps it would be better expressed as: "A few cultures around the World have declared the gender spectrum to be binary by arbitrarily dividing it into two". 
Last edited by pelmut on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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