pelmut wrote:Stu wrote:...It may have been taken out of the category of mental disorders to spare the feelings of some who suffer from gender dysphoria, but it is unquestionably a disorder as opposed to a natural variation.
Do you realise you are referring to me and other members of this forum as disordered, I find it very offensive and I am asking you politely to stop it.
I am not telling you what your opinion should be, but I have provided you with ample evidence that it is wrong and hope that you will eventually change it in the light of the facts.
I totally agree with Pelmut here.
Stu wrote:
Even your own link shows that the reason GID was reclassified was to "reduce the stigma" and I regret that they moved away from being motivated by purely scientific considerations. We shouldn't be too surprised, though, because the WHO is often motivated by other principles, including ideology.
There is nothing offensive about what one sincerely holds to be the truth and there is no reason to be offended by it. There is nothing offensive about having a disorder; we all have them and I have plenty of my own. This is a disagreement about the nature of transsexualism which includes scientific, philosophical and even semantic aspects and I thought we could discuss it in an objective way. I have provided you with evidence in the form of links to substantiate what I say and there are researchers and practitioners who would agree with my view just as I have no doubt there are some who would agree with you.
You are taking this personally and subjectively, and as an attack, which it absolutely is not. If you can't or choose not to discuss this in a way that is detached from your personal circumstances, then let's agree to disagree and move on.
Stu,
I know you like to be very clear about the use of words and their absolute dictionary definitions, despite the fact that words
do have flexible meanings which also change with useage over time.
I also know that you like to be devil's advocate: I remember when this forum was first started in the very beginning, when it was Tom's Cafe, you took it upon yourself to argue time after time about the practicalities and desirabilities of men wearing skirts, and how it wouldn't work or become accepted. But eventually I think you even tried it for yourself and found it OK, even though you insisted on calling them 'sarongs'.
I also remember meeting you and your wife for real, in person, on a couple of occasions and having a great time talking over nice pub lunches. You were a nice chap then.
But what has happened to you? You have changed. Despite your protestations, you
are behaving like a prat and being very offensive, not only to Pelmut (who I also know personally) but to myself as well. I have remained largely silent up until now but I'm sick and bloody tired of this transphobia from you and a few others on this forum (I'm sure you know who you are). The excuse of it all being simply semantic arguments just will not wash. You are being offensive and obnoxious and I wish you would just accept that you are doing wrong and just stop it. Please.
People who are gender dysphoric know it in their very core. Even young children. I knew I was different from the age of three. My daughter knew of her dysphoria definitely from the age of 10 and probably earlier. So you, Stu, and others, DON'T presume to tell us that we don't know how we feel in our minds and bodies, because we actually DO know, and furthermore, it is none of yours nor anyone else's business.
Having been here many years, since the beginning of Tom's Cafe in the 1990s, I am now very, very close to packing in my membership here altogether, as I feel more and more that I am in the wrong place. I do not, and will not, belong in a right-wing, anti-trans environment which this place seems to be gravitating towards. But there are nice people here too, so for the moment I will hang on, unless Carl wants to terminate my membership as a result of this post.